dating a scientologist

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non-Sci bf

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Post Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:16 pm

dating a scientologist

hey everyone-

first of all i just want to congratulate you on what a great community you have going here. it's such a great place to get information that is fair and from informed sources.

here's my story:

i started a girl about half a year ago and found out early on that she grew up in scientology. her grandparents were (and maybe still are) pretty involved, OT VII's I think. her parents i think are OT VI, and aparently her dad had his own auditing practice for some time. it eventually crashed and burned, my girlfriend doesn't seem to know the story, and now her family is completely broke. i assume their financial troubles have a lot to do with scientology. since i found out, i've done a huge amount of research into scientology (a lot of it here) and i have a pretty good idea what it's about and what's going on inside it. as much an idea as you can have, without being "in."

my girlfriend has more limited experience with it. while her school was a scientology (applied scholastics) school, she says she's only taken a couple courses. communication, and maybe something about study tech. so far in our relationship i keep coming to the conclusion that since she's not really practicing in any way, other than still believing in some of the most basic ideas of dianetics, it really doesn't have much impact on our relationship.

however, it's something we never talk about. the very few times we have, she immediately goes on the defensive and gets very upset. i'm the type of person who really likes to be able to talk about anything, but i'm not getting anywhere asking her questions.

my bigger concern though is about her family. i really like this girl but i have to admit i'm a little worried about what could happen when her family meets me and discovers i have no interest in scientology. most of the disconnection stories i hear involve people in the Orgs, which her family is not, but is disconnection still a common thing for people outside the orgs? and if disconnection is extreme, should i be worried that they'll try to pressure me into taking an interest, or be otherwise disapproving?

also, if you have any suggestions about how i can talk to her about this whole topic, it would be much appreciated. in the limited conversations we've had, she seems to have absolutely no knowledge of what's really going on with scientology as a whole. all the rumors she has heard, she considers crazy, unfounded, and hateful. the thing is, to me, a lot of them seem to be true. she probably has to find this out on her own, but i do wish i could talk to her about everything.

that's a lot for one post, so i'll stop here. but thanks so much for any advice anyone has
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ex-cadet

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Post Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:11 pm

so... i haven't really dated someone in or out of scientology cause till i was in i was pretty young and plus in the SO u are not allowed to date (we called it having a 2d which stands for second dynamic and goes for all you personal relationships or more commonly girlfriends, husbands, etc..) so anyways... i exactly can't help u on that part, but... i grew up in scientology, and with even a little flew i'd catch, they'd make me tell them about my family and people close to me that were wogs u know non-sci people... and they'd always say i'm PTS cause of them and would try millions of ways to convince my parents to finally disconect me from them... my own mother would speak to me horrible things about my uncles and aunts and grandparents making me believe that pretty much everyone who wasn't sci at all was almost an SP. So in that part i'd tell you that it sometimes depends on the people but if her parents are very very into scientology they'd soon convince her to disconnect if u are not willing to at least experience scientology or dianetics cause they'd see u as a bad person if u are regecting something that is supposed to be good for u... i don't know if i'm explaining well, but u also said that she is not that much into it so maybe she wouldn't pay much attention to the disconection part, so i can't assure u if it will create conflict or not... all i know though is that truly relationships with a scientologist if u are not into sci at all almost never work.. but it always depends...

For example the last very serious boyfriend my sister had before we got all into the SO (we were public at least my sister and i) he was a total wog, non sci nothing, just a normal guy. My mom kept giving my sister books to get him to read them and he just left them on the table and said he wasn't interested. And so the common chat we used to have at the table included my mother planning various ways to separate him from her cause she thought he was a bad person and she was sure he was an SP. Sooner or later she got my sister to "discover" that she had pitty for him and having pitty for someone is reaaaly low on the tone scale. So that's my story

As to how you could get her to "discover the truth" as i'd call it... well scientologists are very sensible when it comes to giving reasons or to even the thought that scientology is wrong or has fishy stuff to it... it's really hard to get a scientologist to even think of rethinking their beliefs until they start seeing and opening their eyes to what's happening. The only way to get them to talk about it is if you actually showed an interest but it would take u nowhere... even if u ask normal questions too much they'd get upset... i had experiences with that at least...

good luck... don't know if i helped at all but that's all i can say :roll:
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CherryTree

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Post Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:07 pm

Just explaining in case you don't know:
SP - suppresive person, it's the worst thing you can be to scientologists
PTS - potencial trouble source, someone connected to an SP, for example if you get sick they usually say that you are PTS to someone and you have to disconnect from them


I pretty much agree with ex-cadet's opinion, this is a very delicate situation, for now you should probably try to ask how much she is into it, what she wants to do in life and wait and see what turns out, but it's almost sure that her parents will try to separate you from her when they find out that you are not interested in Scientology. And getting involved in it is very risky for yourself and if the girl later decides that she doesn't want to be part of scienotlogy, you will have a hard time brushing them off as well.
just when you thought it's all wrong it proved otherwise
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non-Sci bf

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Post Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:16 pm

thanks for the responses guys.

in the last six months i've done a lot of research about scientology, so I actually know a lot of the language, haha (thanks anyway for the clarifications)

yeah, i'm less worried about her involvement in it. as far as i know, she's not taking courses, and she's not doing auditing. she also hesitates to call herself a scientologist, she'll say she's really into buddhism, but still likes the idea of the 8 dynamics. i don't get the impression she is under pressure from her parents to be on course. they may not even be on course anymore. but who knows.

what does it really mean to be public? since no one in her family is currently working for the church, i think that's how you'd classify them. are issues of disconnection or pressuring to join still a concern? or is that more of a thing associated with the SO, etc.?

it's not like we're planning to get married anytime soon, but i am a little scared of falling more in love with her and then having her family come between us.
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CherryTree

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Post Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:16 pm

Public means yes that they are not on staff at any Org or the SO, so yes they are not working for the church just doing services. It depends wether individuals are pressured to join any kind of org, if they are rich, well paying public than that's better for the church and they don't preesure them to join, but other people, especially young adults, kids, not to wealthy people who would want to do scientology services are given the bait that if they join they can do them for free.

That's a good sign I think that she is not pressured to do services, but still who knows, depends what she says to her parents about what she is thinking.

I still think that communication is the best solution, try to explain everything why you are worried, what you are worried about, without putting too much pressure on her.

You know her, so it's up to you to decide, but I think you should try telling her, that you realy like her, but worried about what her parents would think about you not being interested in sci at all. Be nice, don't get angry if she rejects the topic. Try again sometime later.
just when you thought it's all wrong it proved otherwise
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ex-cadet

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Post Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:43 pm

yup i pretty much say the same thing as cherrytree... most of all if u abord the subject of scientology make sure u don't show any rejection towards it... show ur self more interested about it but at the same time don't make it as if u are wanting to join in any way, that'll make it easier cause like i said before they are really sensible about it...

and as i know... the beliefs and practices and prohibided things are mostly samely applied to the staff or the public... so it's the same if an SO, staff or public regects a non-sci... it's no difference.
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Avery1

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Post Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:15 am

This may sound very harsh, but I would consider cutting your losses. I know it seems right now she's not particularly involved, but it is clear her family is devout, even if they aren't working for them. I can just imagine at some point down the road, if your gf has troubles in life she may want to get away from, or isn't sure what she should be doing, the cult will take the opportunity to use their manipulative recruiting tactics on her when she is most vulnerable.

You just have to think what a future involved with someone tied up in a cult will really be like. She may always want to appease her parents, which means not being critical of Scientology. Long run, will you really be comfortable sending your kids to grandma and grandpa's house knowing they may be spending time at a Scientology org getting brainwashed? Or do you want to be in the position to fight with your wife about trying to care for her elderly parents when they spend all their money on Scientology services?

Scientology enters families and leaves a path of destruction that touches everyone's lives. Some people manage to get out and repair themselves and some do not. But it damages everyone.

You might like this girl a lot, but you are setting yourself up for a lot of turmoil if you stay with her and try to make it work.

Best wishes.
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Iknowtoomuch

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Post Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:31 am

I agree with Avery.

As soon as they find out you know too much (lol), you will be booted away from the family anyways.

She's indoctrinated and not willing to even view what you want her to see.
"Everybody has a right to believe what they want to believe. But I don't believe that anybody has a right to trick anybody, to hurt anybody, to harm some body, for their own purposes." - Jason Beghe
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non-Sci bf

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Post Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:23 pm

It seems like what everyone is saying is that it's pretty rare for anyway to truly have a casual involvement in Scientology. I guess that's sort of the impression I've gotten previously, although my gf's situation was making me doubt that.

Maybe it's worth bringing it up now rather than later. Even if it causes some heartache in the short run. It's probably better than a bigger catastrophe later on.

Seriously, if anyone has tips on how to approach a conversation on Scientology without upsetting the person involved, I'd really appreciate it. So far, every time I mention the word, a wall immediately goes up.
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BC

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Post Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:35 pm

I've been in your shoes

non-sci bf - I've been in your shoes, or at least probably as close as possible. I'll give you a brief explanation of my husbands family's involvement, my relationship with my husband and how I approached the same issue.

When I was first dating my husband he told me he was a Scientologist, but he hadn't done anything with the church in years because he had lost interest. Which at the time I knew absolutely nothing about and so it didn't really bother me at all. Until I went online and couldn't believe what I found! First I started showing him everything I was reading because I thought that surely he must just not realize what kind of group this was that he was involved with and that I could show him and he would no longer want anything to do with Scientology. I found out that is not a smart way to approach it. I got what sounds to be the party line that you can't believe all the things you read on-line and that everyone he ever met through Scientology has been very nice. So I became shall we say a closet on-line researcher of the religion, which is what it sounds like you're doing too. Be sure to read as much as you can and decide for yourself what you think is right.

Luckily not all of my husbands family is into Scientology and they don't live near us, but they have all tried it and had various outcomes. With his parents, it was the cause of their divorce as I understand it because of all the costs and they didn't agree on how much of the family money should be spent on Scientology. So now one parent has nothing to do with it and the other is at least an OTV (might be higher now). I wasn't there, but that is the story as I've pieced it together over the years. As far as siblings go, my husband has two, one is in the SO and one wants nothing to do with Scientology. So it's really a mixed bag of what people in the family do with Scientology, but I think so far me and one other person (not blood relative) are the only ones that think that there is something seriously wrong with the way the group operates. Everyone else, including my husband thinks Scientology is harmless.

When we first met we lived on the other side of the country from his family, so my first visit was a fly out and stay for the week with him kind of trip. It was almost a quick end to the relationship, I had no clue what I was about to experience. The first visit I heard all kinds of crazy stories about the healing power that one family member believed they had due to Scientology. Those are a story for another day though. Anyway, I was bombarded with these stories whenever my husband was not around and was given the hard sell on Scientology. I waited until we got home and then it became one of those awful "Don't get mad at me, but we have to talk about this" kind of conversations. We survived.

The next trip out, I was basically forced to watch a video on the wonders of Dianetics, which was awful and I just got up and literally left the house because I was so angry. After that I told him that I would not return for any more family visits until it was explained to them that neither of us was interested in Scientology and if he didn't want to have the conversation with the select family members then I would, but I made it clear that I did not plan on being polite and wishy washy on it, so it would be better if he did it. This was also the point where I was VERY clear about my feelings on Scientology and asked if he was ever going to be involved in the future, I explained that if he saw a future with it, then I was not going to be part of that future. They have never brought up the subject around me again and it has been 7 years now. Although, it still affects certain aspects of our life due to his families involvement because it's not a normal family situation. One sibling is almost never seen because they are in the SO (In 8 years I've met them twice and they didn't even bother to come to our wedding) and there is kind of always the feeling in the air of something people aren't discussing.

My advice to you would be that you need to think long and hard about your situation and whether it will work for you given your girlfriends involvment/lack there of, her family's invovlment and how close everyone is to each other. Don't think you can change any of their opinions on the religion. She will probably be like my husband in that you will never get her to agree that it is not a good organization, but if you can live with agreeing to disagree then it's okay. There are some things that I would advise you to think about that I wish someone had told me when I was at your point in the relationship.

1. Does your girlfriend think she may ever get involved again in the future?

2. Is her family going to try to push the religion on you? If you reject it is she okay with that?

3. Children - I didn't think about this until I had a child, but how do you explain to your kids someday that your wife's family is all part of a religion you think is a cult? Just food for thought, I haven't figured this one out yet, but I do know that there won't be any overnight visits for the kids without me.

4. Scientology will never go away. My husband hasn't been involved since 1996 and we still get calls, mail, etc.

Good luck, I know it's a very tough position to be in. You have to trust your gut on it.
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BC

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Post Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:36 pm

I've been in your shoes

non-sci bf - I've been in your shoes, or at least probably as close as possible. I'll give you a brief explanation of my husbands family's involvement, my relationship with my husband and how I approached the same issue.

When I was first dating my husband he told me he was a Scientologist, but he hadn't done anything with the church in years because he had lost interest. Which at the time I knew absolutely nothing about and so it didn't really bother me at all. Until I went online and couldn't believe what I found! First I started showing him everything I was reading because I thought that surely he must just not realize what kind of group this was that he was involved with and that I could show him and he would no longer want anything to do with Scientology. I found out that is not a smart way to approach it. I got what sounds to be the party line that you can't believe all the things you read on-line and that everyone he ever met through Scientology has been very nice. So I became shall we say a closet on-line researcher of the religion, which is what it sounds like you're doing too. Be sure to read as much as you can and decide for yourself what you think is right.

Luckily not all of my husbands family is into Scientology and they don't live near us, but they have all tried it and had various outcomes. With his parents, it was the cause of their divorce as I understand it because of all the costs and they didn't agree on how much of the family money should be spent on Scientology. So now one parent has nothing to do with it and the other is at least an OTV (might be higher now). I wasn't there, but that is the story as I've pieced it together over the years. As far as siblings go, my husband has two, one is in the SO and one wants nothing to do with Scientology. So it's really a mixed bag of what people in the family do with Scientology, but I think so far me and one other person (not blood relative) are the only ones that think that there is something seriously wrong with the way the group operates. Everyone else, including my husband thinks Scientology is harmless.

When we first met we lived on the other side of the country from his family, so my first visit was a fly out and stay for the week with him kind of trip. It was almost a quick end to the relationship, I had no clue what I was about to experience. The first visit I heard all kinds of crazy stories about the healing power that one family member believed they had due to Scientology. Those are a story for another day though. Anyway, I was bombarded with these stories whenever my husband was not around and was given the hard sell on Scientology. I waited until we got home and then it became one of those awful "Don't get mad at me, but we have to talk about this" kind of conversations. We survived.

The next trip out, I was basically forced to watch a video on the wonders of Dianetics, which was awful and I just got up and literally left the house because I was so angry. After that I told him that I would not return for any more family visits until it was explained to them that neither of us was interested in Scientology and if he didn't want to have the conversation with the select family members then I would, but I made it clear that I did not plan on being polite and wishy washy on it, so it would be better if he did it. This was also the point where I was VERY clear about my feelings on Scientology and asked if he was ever going to be involved in the future, I explained that if he saw a future with it, then I was not going to be part of that future. They have never brought up the subject around me again and it has been 7 years now. Although, it still affects certain aspects of our life due to his families involvement because it's not a normal family situation. One sibling is almost never seen because they are in the SO (In 8 years I've met them twice and they didn't even bother to come to our wedding) and there is kind of always the feeling in the air of something people aren't discussing.

My advice to you would be that you need to think long and hard about your situation and whether it will work for you given your girlfriends involvment/lack there of, her family's invovlment and how close everyone is to each other. Don't think you can change any of their opinions on the religion. She will probably be like my husband in that you will never get her to agree that it is not a good organization, but if you can live with agreeing to disagree then it's okay. There are some things that I would advise you to think about that I wish someone had told me when I was at your point in the relationship.

1. Does your girlfriend think she may ever get involved again in the future?

2. Is her family going to try to push the religion on you? If you reject it is she okay with that?

3. Children - I didn't think about this until I had a child, but how do you explain to your kids someday that your wife's family is all part of a religion you think is a cult? Just food for thought, I haven't figured this one out yet, but I do know that there won't be any overnight visits for the kids without me.

4. Scientology will never go away. My husband hasn't been involved since 1996 and we still get calls, mail, etc.

Good luck, I know it's a very tough position to be in. You have to trust your gut on it.
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ex-cadet

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Post Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:56 pm

BC has a very good point of view about it and she is right, sci never goes away we still get calls and letters and stuff sometimes i don't know how the h** they managed to get this adress cause i don't even live in my country anymore but they do and they only stop it when we practically yell to them that we are related to a declared SP but it really doesn't go here so yeah.. :roll:
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non-Sci bf

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Post Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:23 am

I've never come across any Sci letters or magazines or anything at her place. either they're not sending it, or she does an amazing job of hiding it. i hope the former is true!
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non-Sci bf

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Post Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:00 pm

you know, it never ceases to amaze me that in a world where information is so readily available and public opinion of scientology is so poor, that the people inside have so little interest in looking or listening. the brainwashing machine is so effective!
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James McGuigan

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Post Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:34 pm

Now what sort of mindset would be required for that behaviour to seem normal and logical.

Now which set of assumptions in your belief system do you assume are 100% certian, and which assumptions are open to question in the face of external information.

You say that public opinion of scientology is poor. One explaination is that Scientology is not all it is cracked up to be. Now assume for a moment that you know for certian that scientology is the one and only solution to mankinds problems. This is not up for question, so lets requestion all our other assumptions.

So how do you explain poor public opinion... well the public must be miseducated and mis-informed. Who is informing the public... the mass media, and why would they be misinforming the public? The mass media has fairly centralized ownership with potentually vested intrests. So if these vested intrests are attacking scientology, and scientology is there to help humanity, then these vested intrests must have a vested intrest in keeping humanity down.

LRH stated that one of the barriers to study is to believe that you already know the answers. If you already know what Scientology is about, why are going to even listen to the ignorant masses.

Think of the Christian right in the US and the vast liberal conspercy to undermine family values and send us all to hell in a handbasket.


This is one of the reasons the CoS goes to such lengths to fight and discredit every individual PR flap. As long as there is enough of an element of doubt over every individual accusation, then the primary assumption that "Scientology is the one and only solution to all mankinds problems" remains intact and absolute.

Once this assumption is no longer absolute, a radical shift in assumptions is possible, which is a very scary process both for the indivudial going through it, and the people around them who see a friend suddenly going mad and turning to the dark side and questioning the Truth... that liberal conspercy is a dangerous beast, look what it did to Fred, I better not listen to anything they have to say, incase I get corrupted.
Freedom is a choice. Choose to be yourself, choose to speak your truth and do so with compassion. And above all else, choose to be not afraid. If I can't dance, its not my revolution.
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non-Sci bf

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Post Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:57 pm

yeah, the whole thing runs so deep.

i don't understand this:
LRH stated that one of the barriers to study is to believe that you already know the answers. If you already know what Scientology is about, why are going to even listen to the ignorant masses.


isn't a 'barrier to study' a bad thing? isn't LRH making the point that you should never assume you already know the answers? i could see how that helps with convincing people that they shouldn't assume they're doing okay and that they don't actually need to do this auditing or these courses for lots of money. but in this case it seems like a major contradiction. typical i guess?
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CherryTree

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Post Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:41 pm

These kind of sentences in scientology are part of the brainwashing. for example there is a course called Personal values and integrity. It's a very basic course, done at the very beginning of scientology involvement, I was 9 when my father made me do it. It's mostly about that the only thing that's true is what's true for you. This makes the person feel that they are the ones deciding whether they want to do anything with it. Yes at first maybe. But later on everything is controlled especially if you are a staff member.
just when you thought it's all wrong it proved otherwise
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James McGuigan

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Post Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:44 am

non-Sci bf wrote:
i don't understand this:
isn't a 'barrier to study' a bad thing? isn't LRH making the point that you should never assume you already know the answers? i could see how that helps with convincing people that they shouldn't assume they're doing okay and that they don't actually need to do this auditing or these courses for lots of money. but in this case it seems like a major contradiction. typical i guess?



From an external viewpoint, it could be seen as a barrier to study. From Scientolgy zelot point of view, its a subject you are not allowed to study, and this barrier must be enforced.

One of the problems with Scientology is that while some of Hubbard's teachings could be considered a somewhat enlightened point of view, when these ideas are applied to the subject of Scientology itself, the fundamentalist tendencies of the CoS kick in, clearing the planet is more important than anything else, even indivudal enlightenment... they have lost the forest for the trees.
Freedom is a choice. Choose to be yourself, choose to speak your truth and do so with compassion. And above all else, choose to be not afraid. If I can't dance, its not my revolution.
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Reasonable

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Post Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:44 am

The probem is if you become part of her family then you are her 2nd dynamic and you are now part of her grandparents 2nd dynamic, So they are responsible for you.
If you are anagonistic then they must handle you because you are in their second dynamic.

If they can't handle you they must disconnect from you and her.

Not joining is OK.
being openly antagonistic is not.
Joining then quitting could be a problem if it is done publicly.

So just act neutral and uninterested and stay at arms enght on the subject and al will be fine.

If being that way is not in your nature I would get out now because it won't be pretty.
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mrtampa

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Post Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:31 am

In Scientology we encouraged the dating and marraige between two scientologist and if you dated someone from outside you had to get her/him into the religion.
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