The Criticism of Scientology and Open-Mindedness

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Grundy

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Post Sun May 11, 2008 7:52 pm

The Criticism of Scientology and Open-Mindedness

I know that for the most part, everyone here has a negative viewpoint of everything "scientological" .. and many with reason.

But it doesnt alter the fact that many have achieved some gains. Myself included.

If you expect to help scientologists see the abuses being committed by their church, you cannot harp against the subject as a whole and expect them to listen to you.

It basically indicated to them that you ARE just judgemental and close-minded. You have no respect for the rights of any person to believe as he wants.

If you told a christian that there is no god and that Jesus Christ was a con man of epic proportions, would you expect someone who has spent years in the chistian churches to listen to you? Especially if they felt that they had felt touched by the Holy Spirit?

See my point?
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LronIsgonE_Snap

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Post Sun May 11, 2008 8:33 pm

Yes, Grundy, I definitely see your point and agree completely. I have no doubt that you had gains from Scientology. Respect for the beliefs of others is very important. As you well know, ESK was not set up to be an all-out bashfest of all things Scientology. The lies and abuses coming from the totalitarian top are where the anti-CoS energy should be focused.
Enjoy your life today,
For time is fleeting.
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Grundy

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Post Sun May 11, 2008 9:01 pm

I agree completely .. (this thread was a result of a comment on "Let me be the first " thread
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rollette

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Post Mon May 12, 2008 12:59 am

Well you know, I have no problems with the beliefs of scientology. As far fetched as they may seem to alot of people. I grew up in it and my problem is with the policies and control factors that the COS uses. Of course I have recieved some gains as well. I think Scio. has great courses for communication & comprehension. But so does college for about 1/4 the price. This is something I have wondered since I was a kid...If these courses hold the "key to life" and scientology is the only way of salvation, then why the hell do you have to buy everything? It's a scam. I'm sorry, but you compared this to telling a christian there is no christ. Well many christians have been raped by thier priests and are prettypissed off about it. Scientology is full of corruptness and mental rape so to speak. I am living proof of that. There's alot of people who have lived through Scientology's bullshit. NOw they are coming out of the woodwork to speak about it. It's about time.
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hidden

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Post Sun May 25, 2008 8:47 am

thanks Grundy
“You won't always be here. But before you go, whisper this to your sons and their sons - "The work was free. Keep it so."
~L. Ron Hubbard

International Freezone Association
http://internationalfreezone.net/
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MLWilde

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Post Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:19 pm

I agree with you Grundy, and actually I find many of the beliefs of SCN in alignment with a lot of new thought systems , though I've recently been made aware that this is a very SP thing to say - but hell. I wish that critics (and many do) would take the focus off Xenu (um, virgin birth, reptilian conspiracies anyone?) and back onto the fair game, child neglect, violation of child labor laws etc.

I've had people defend Scn by referring to the priest abuses in the Catholic Church (also a cult, IMO) but then again, in the Catholic church you can get f***ed by a priest for free, whereas it'll cost you a half a mil to get screwed by Scientology. :)


I've also seen this statement a few times:

“You won't always be here. But before you go, whisper this to your sons and their sons - "The work was free. Keep it so." ~L. Ron Hubbard

Is there any validation of this? Is it an actual statement from LRH, meaning did he write it down anywhere or is this just something the Freezone likes to claim? Just wondering because LRH, while he may have been a con man and a narcissist , may have also been initially well-intentioned, though I haven't seen much too support that.
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gogogadget

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Post Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:54 pm

"I wish that critics (and many do) would take the focus off Xenu (um, virgin birth, reptilian conspiracies anyone?) and back onto the fair game, child neglect, violation of child labor laws etc."

I wonder about that... how marginal groups (deservedly so or not) are often forced deeper into marginality (is that a word?) by the irrelevant or insulting outside criticism. This happens partially as a survival technique to identify and connect with one's peers. So, in that way what we might call Scientology culture is a lot like gaming culture, or Hip Hop culture, or Amish culture. It's a response to outside pressures.

Of course, it could also work against the leadership of the Church, too. The folks that live through the absurdities foisted on them by the Church leadership develop their own ways of coping, and develop their own subtle subculture in response.

When an outside critic attempts to engage someone from a community, that critic had better have some sort of reasonable knowledge of what is real for that community. The Xenu stuff is I'm sure is more nuanced than I can possibly understand. It's the little stuff that is more vivid to me, the fact that simple things like the act of going out to buy the papers can be liberating, or the madness and indignity of that nightmarish musical chairs episode. I think it's the universals, the things that all humans can be reasonably expected to be able to relate to, that have more resonance.

The use of fear, humiliation, the predatory retailing of religion, the lies and the venality of the leadership. THAT'S what gets to me. The Thetan story is at its root just a story, and I can take it or leave it. But the con is vicious and inhuman. That's where the fight is.
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JasonL

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Post Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:33 am

I used to hate the cult because of it's story (the Xenu thing, you know)
as years go by, I start to realize the problem with $cn shouldn't be its belief, but rather their practice

I don't care if they believe in the existence of Xenu (after all, there were people who believed that the "Da Vinci Code" was for real)
The story was just something that you learn about the religion, more like special features in a DVD (while the practices are the movie itself)
but obviously, you never join a religion base on its story, but its own practices
"Through this supression, they punish the people that's askin questions. And those that possess, steal from the ones without possessions." - 2pac
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Iknowtoomuch

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Post Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:00 pm

The real problem is the Sa Org not Scientology as a whole.
Yet you can't have Scientology without the Sea Org. Or you can't at this point.
If Scientology were just that, I'd still be interested for the most part, but it's not the case. You have "big brother" always watching.
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Lordceptimos

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Post Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:03 pm

grundy full on yah...

but i ask you... what do you think of all the times scientologsts have bullbaited, hurt, destroyed property, sued and all the other bad things that certain members have done.
do you condone such acts of aggression towards free thinkers?
do you think its right that certain individual members have beaten, hurt and yelled at lower ranking members?
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.
- John Milton, Paradise lost .329
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Grundy

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Post Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:43 pm

Of COURSE NOT!

I think that the organization in its present state should go down. The application of procedures should be as one wishes.
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Spork

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Post Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:45 pm

Re: The Criticism of Scientology and Open-Mindedness

Grundy wrote:I know that for the most part, everyone here has a negative viewpoint of everything "scientological" .. and many with reason.

But it doesnt alter the fact that many have achieved some gains. Myself included.

If you expect to help scientologists see the abuses being committed by their church, you cannot harp against the subject as a whole and expect them to listen to you.

It basically indicated to them that you ARE just judgemental and close-minded. You have no respect for the rights of any person to believe as he wants.


Agree 100%. At all times it's essential to reason closely and to _argue_ (NOT: debate) point-by-point. And one should be prepared to follow the argument wherever it happens to go. (An expectation of this or that outcome might be a hunch or it might be a mere prejudice.)

That way, whether or not it manages to help the Scientologist, it's at least more likely to help the objectively-minded critic who's trying get a grip on an abstract and frankly baffling set of problems.
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outlander

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Post Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:13 pm

I also agree with you 100% on this grundy.

I have a hard time saying everything in this subject is bad, can't say all the people are bad ... but the execution is wrong.

All success I have had in showing people the "light" has been based upon reinforcing the rightness of certain aspects in the subject, and then bringing up the negatives in a way they could accept.

Generally you have to bracket the negatives with positives, "I love the Scientological concept of helping good and honest men dream and reach their dreams, but have a problem with the degridation of the family unit and forced "abortion or leave the sea org policy", feeling this is destructive to peoples dynamics, imagine the personal strength the SO members could build to forward the goals if they were treated well and could expand their personal lives.
Create that of your life that which you would like to see in a changed world. Ghandi
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RonTheCon

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Post Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:15 am

:wink: I use to love scn tech for 30 years, intil I found out were ron stole most of his work..and The real O T is not ron...its EDGER CAYCE the book is called the COMPANION, compiled by Ernest Frejer ron stole his work took god out of the picture then added his sifi stuf...and he has the real bridge. cayce when I frist picked up the book I was so bull headed with scn info fixed concepts.. or stuck view point on ron.. I was a complete non beliver in god...this came from being a x scn kid intil I hit 48 yars old this took me 900 hrs of reading, before I converted and did a 180 turn in my life.. and now I am a edger cayce lover... wow did I have a lot of misunderstanding .. my life is so happey no greed no money no hate no fighting all free just the cost of the book... and the REAL BRIDGE. there was nothing cayce could not do..some of his work is exact as L RON and cayce passed on in 1945, the whole track, bodey entideys. there no question not answer perfectly there is just not enought I could say about this man cayce...and most people love cayce.not this your a freak your into that scientology stuff who hurt people my life is great now and I do my bridge ever day which is the LAW OF ONE, BRIGE... and how you can walk into narvania....forget engrams its all karma all sickness and mental proplems are karmic..you can do dianetic and scn for 1000 years and if your karma is bad you will get whats coming to ya lol/
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Terril park

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Post Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:37 pm

LronIsgonE_Snap wrote:Yes, Grundy, I definitely see your point and agree completely. I have no doubt that you had gains from Scientology. Respect for the beliefs of others is very important. As you well know, ESK was not set up to be an all-out bashfest of all things Scientology. The lies and abuses coming from the totalitarian top are where the anti-CoS energy should be focused.



Hi,
I promote the FZ as you might see on the pro scn thread here.

There is only one class XII in the Freezone. I'd be interested in hearing from you.

Please mail me at basic2basic@yahoo.com

best wishes Terril
http://www.freewebs .com/techoutside thecofs/

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