OKAY .. I will be the first

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Grundy

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Post Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:09 am

OKAY .. I will be the first

There was someone over at ESMB asking specifically for positives. They were writing a paper and they felt they had enough of the negatives.

So this was my response to their questions:

Originally Posted by Raptorjesus
What was the main attraction to Scientology?


To me, it was like coming home. I grew up with Scientology parents that never pushed it on us (except for a little when I was 5 years old lol).

The concept of clear and OT was enthralling.

Also, I pretty much joined staff when I started out. I liked the concept of laid-out policy and procedures. It made sense to me.

I just felt really comfortable in this group.

Originally Posted by Raptorjesus
What were some good things that you have learned from being a Scientologist?


When I became involved, I was a shy, quiet, introverted individual. I disliked religions (especially christian ones) because they used to be pushed on me by those that were "born-again." I had no real friends, couldn't communicate well.

Through Scientology, I learned to respect and admire religions of all type.

I became a much more communicative individual and became friends with hundreds and hundreds of people.

I became able to communicate to complete strangers (both Scientologists and non-Scientologists) without self-conciousness.

I became able to listen to people and help them out when they were upset or distraught (not using "auditing" or some such, just being able to talk to them).

I became able to observe things and confront things around me.

I learned how to cope with huge and overwhelming problems.

I learned how to educate people (I am a teacher now).

I learned how to study, obtain and quickly use new information as it was presented to me, and evaluate importances within a body of information.

I learned how to hold a position of authority based solely on comportment and skill.

I learned how to take and give orders.

I learned how to disagree with someone without giving offense.

I learned how to avoid drugs and excessive alchohol without creating a dangerous environment (important in my field lol).

I learned how to handle argumentative parties and settle tense situations down.

I learned how to handle trust, when to give it, and how to keep it.

I learned to control my environment as necessary to get a needed result.

I learned how to take criticism, whether valid or not, and how to give it when necessary.

I learned the value of giving help to those people that I can help.

These are some of the things I learned as a Scientologist.

Looking back at it now, I have to admit, it made me the person I am today. There are some negative aspects, to be sure. But there were a lot of positive aspects for me as well.
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anonycat

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Post Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:27 am

Grundy, this looks like an excellent list, but I have learned this things too without the help of any special religion or philosophy.

I was a shy kid too and didn´t have the greatest support from my parents. But I did have a good education because I wanted too, have read a lot of books about different topics (history, philosophy, science, economy, management methods, mathematics, biographies, .....). have a good common sense, curiosity and humour. This are the key factors of my life.
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Anonspring

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Post Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:42 am

Huh. I learned all the above from practicing kendo. Maybe you should join? :lol:

Ok, Ok, I'll be serious (though I wasn't really joking about the above). I was a shy, introverted, socially awkward kid too. What got me to blossom was putting me in a school of like-minded individuals. I loved to learn, and was a pretty (relatively) rebellious kid. In rebellious, I mean that I rarely took what they said at face value, and always had to explain to them my own way of viewing things. This is a big no-no in my family.

Then I went to the school, and it got worse because there I learned how to think critically and question authority (oops). My parents, thankfully, recognized the good in that and allowed me to stay.

I started practicing kendo in college and that was when things truly started to go for the better. The first thing kendo taught me was discipline. It exposed a lot of weaknesses about myself, emotionally, and physically. I could either try to improve myself, or not stay.

But I think the one difference between kendo and scientology is that it teaches people to accept those weaknesses. Nobody can be perfect, and my sensei's taught me that, pounded it in in fact. I can therefore be confident because I KNOW who I am, what my weaknesses are, and that I'm capable of overcoming them. I seriously doubt that they could have tripped me up with a stress test. I know what I am, including all the dark, pathetic, and dirty bits. Anything they revealed wouldn't have surprised me. I'm not afraid.

And since I don't know where I'm going with this anymore I think I'll shut up now. :oops:
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sugaree

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Post Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:04 pm

anonycat wrote:Grundy, this looks like an excellent list, but I have learned this things too without the help of any special religion or philosophy.

I was a shy kid too and didn´t have the greatest support from my parents. But I did have a good education because I wanted too, have read a lot of books about different topics (history, philosophy, science, economy, management methods, mathematics, biographies, .....). have a good common sense, curiosity and humour. This are the key factors of my life.

My sentiments exactly.

Your list is usually referred to as maturity, Grundy. Lessons everyone hopefully learns along the way, whether thru specific practices as kendo or just living life. The liberal arts college experience is especially helpful in facilitating this process, directly and indirectly, but no one I know gives all credit for growing up in the ways you've enumerated to it or any other particular source.

It is probably hard to distinguish between what is scientology and what is simply growing up if one joins at a young age, especially while CoS is telling you that it is solely responsible for all you are, dismissing every other source of education in the process. But I bet you'd have learned all you did w/o scientology, and w/o the unhealthy baggage that seems to inevitably come with it.
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Holden Caulfield

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Post Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:25 pm

Anonspring wrote: The first thing kendo taught me was discipline. It exposed a lot of weaknesses about myself, emotionally, and physically. I could either try to improve myself, or not stay.

But I think the one difference between kendo and scientology is that it teaches people to accept those weaknesses. Nobody can be perfect, and my sensei's taught me that, pounded it in in fact. I can therefore be confident because I KNOW who I am, what my weaknesses are, and that I'm capable of overcoming them. I seriously doubt that they could have tripped me up with a stress test. I know what I am, including all the dark, pathetic, and dirty bits. Anything they revealed wouldn't have surprised me. I'm not afraid.

And since I don't know where I'm going with this anymore I think I'll shut up now. :oops:


Agreed, Kendo really reveales some of your flaws to you, I noticed that when I forst started out. At first it reminded me of a cult and I frowned upon a lot of the traditional things in it and expected it to be more like other sports. Then I realized I was the one with the preconvieved notions and just tried to open up.
Then came the physical part, realizing that I tend to give up too quickly and don't stick to it enough. Kendo is really an amazing thing to practice and it's giving me a lot although I'm still a beginner.

How long have you been doing Kendo?
"If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth."
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guardianofthetubes

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Post Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:46 pm

I'm an anon so obviously I think the cons outweigh the pros, but I can definitely understand how the structure and certainty of Scientology would be attractive, especially when someone is going through tough times. (Of course there are other ways to get this).

When someone is facing a personal crisis, and they feel like their world is collapsing into chaos, Scientology and its 'bridge to total freedom' probably sound fantastic. And I imagine auditing, with its one-on-one contact with another human being, would certainly feel therapeutic. I am sure that most Scientologists are truly good hearted people, so they really would be listening with empathy and understanding, trying to help the person being audited.

So if you truly feel helped by Scientology that's great. Just remember, someone once said "if it isn't true for you, it isn't true."
Be true to yourself, be honest, and if it isn't working you should be free to walk away. Remember that decent things can and do become corrupted, and corruption likes to hide behind a facade of decency. If you go deeper into Scientology you should not accept it if it takes progressively more from you and helps you less. As you go further up the bridge, remember your supervisors and leaders should be better human beings as you would expect from OTs. If they become nastier and more abusive, then something is wrong.
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anonypanda

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Post Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:28 pm

Hmm, one way to approach this deal is what did you learn from Scientology that you couldn't get from somewhere else MUCH easier. A vast majority of that stuff would be learned by anyone who has been in the military (such as everyone in countries like Finland and a few others with mandatory service) or through taking a gap year before college or heck, maybe even in a good enough school.

I dunno, I just don't think of it as a PRO for Scientology if there are ways to learn the same lessons easier, not to mention cheaper and without the "mind-control" garbage etc. Its all about opportunity cost - to apply economics to the situation.
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TwilightAnon

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Post Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:44 pm

I too have learned lessons like Grundy's. But I learned it all from comics. Ah, Superman, where would I be without thee?
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Grundy

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Post Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:52 pm

Try not to rag too much on the pro Scientology forum. :evil:

:P

I know that there are different ways of achieving the same results. This is not an endorsement of the subject so much as a statement of what I got out of it.

And it's not all about Mind Control. Notice that they taught me to be myself so much that I left ....
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Grundy

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Post Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:56 pm

anonycat wrote:Grundy, this looks like an excellent list, but I have learned this things too without the help of any special religion or philosophy.

I was a shy kid too and didn´t have the greatest support from my parents. But I did have a good education because I wanted too, have read a lot of books about different topics (history, philosophy, science, economy, management methods, mathematics, biographies, .....). have a good common sense, curiosity and humour. This are the key factors of my life.


They are key factors in my life too ... NOW. And a lot of that was because of my experiences in Scientology. I used to read encyclopedias for fun when I was in the Sea Org. (no movies or television lol)

(Now I just watch Discovery Channel, Science Channel, Military Channel, History Channel, (used to be) Court TV, CNN, ESPN etc, etc. Oh, and read about 2-7 books a week.)

(Of course I did that before becoming a Scientologist too.)
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Cof$uckitude

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Post Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:19 pm

religion has played a huge part in my life. it has taught me better ways to deal with other people, and to deal with the world. that stuff is external.

"internal" things, like shyness, or awkwardness, you have to conquer on your own. you have to decide for yourself to try to reach happiness. i think you can try to use religion for that inner peace, but that more often than not thats destined to fail.

its as if you have to "train" yourself to get over learned, reinforced reactions to something. like speaking in public, for example.
"the tech is bullcrap that doesnt work" - me
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Anonspring

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Post Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:54 pm

Holden Caulfield wrote:
Agreed, Kendo really reveales some of your flaws to you, I noticed that when I forst started out. At first it reminded me of a cult and I frowned upon a lot of the traditional things in it and expected it to be more like other sports. Then I realized I was the one with the preconvieved notions and just tried to open up.
Then came the physical part, realizing that I tend to give up too quickly and don't stick to it enough. Kendo is really an amazing thing to practice and it's giving me a lot although I'm still a beginner.

How long have you been doing Kendo?


I've been practicing it for about a year and a half now. I'm trying to reach 1 kyu by the end of this year.

Kendo is very Japanese in the fact that like every other Japanese art form, the point is to try to reach a point of perfection that is impossible to reach (and they KNOW it's impossible to reach).

I admire that mindset, and work it into my daily life.

It's also not an olympic sport for that very reason. The Japanese consider it an art form, not a sport, and putting it in the olympics would turn it into one. Kendo is a journey of self discovery, and it is, more often than not, a tough path to follow. I used to, and sometimes still do, go home from practice in tears. It's not uncommon to feel humiliated and angry during practice. The difference, I think, is that people expect it and know what's coming, and choose to participate in it anyway. It's not kept secret, and you're not prevented from leaving if you find it to be too much.

I would compare it more to the military than a cult to be honest. It was modeled off samurai training after all.
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Lordceptimos

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Post Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:20 am

now not to bash on anti-scientology or nothing... nor do i wanna bash on kendo.
or anyone who loves a good artform now and then.....
but scientology has brought people together in ways that is world wide. albiet through backhanded deadlings and other means. yet they took on a core root that struck alot of people.
they posed that they had a solution to problems of today.
they helped people understand in ways that others didnt see.
they helped the lives of many and yes they destroyed the lives of many.
for many who join, they answered the problems and gave people hope for a better tomorow. they gave the people a seed of hope.

call it brainwashing call it whatever you like but they got the job done in many ways than we can thnk of. simply because they were highly organised and they had a planned structure that they could rely on.
yes like a military operation they performed their duties and gathered the masses.
they gather supporters from around the world.
they utilize basic phsycology. heh odd but its true.

now im putting my tin hat back on.
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.
- John Milton, Paradise lost .329
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Anonspring

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Post Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:31 am

Lordceptimos wrote:now not to bash on anti-scientology or nothing... nor do i wanna bash on kendo.
or anyone who loves a good artform now and then.....
but scientology has brought people together in ways that is world wide. albiet through backhanded deadlings and other means. yet they took on a core root that struck alot of people.
they posed that they had a solution to problems of today.
they helped people understand in ways that others didnt see.
they helped the lives of many and yes they destroyed the lives of many.
for many who join, they answered the problems and gave people hope for a better tomorow. they gave the people a seed of hope.


Yay, let's make up a problem and prepare to solve it! How is this different from the hundreds, thousands of philosophies and religions that are floating around on this planet? In fact, oddly enough, you've just described Anonymous, except, oh, they haven't hurt anybody, and the threat that unites us is actually real. Perhaps you may find it acceptable, but if scientology is as good as so many people claim, it would never have to hurt a single person, including SP's. Even one person hurt because of the beliefs of a system is completely unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

call it brainwashing call it whatever you like but they got the job done in many ways than we can thnk of. simply because they were highly organised and they had a planned structure that they could rely on.
yes like a military operation they performed their duties and gathered the masses.
they gather supporters from around the world.
they utilize basic phsycology. heh odd but its true.

now im putting my tin hat back on.


What job? Got what done? They hurt and destroyed hundreds of people in the process. That for me, is a cost that is far too high.

Sorry but, of all the defenses for Scientology, this has got to be the worst.
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Grundy

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Post Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:57 am

Anonspring wrote:What job? Got what done? They hurt and destroyed hundreds of people in the process. That for me, is a cost that is far too high.


You have a point. But I have one two (I know it's supposed to be too ... I have two points ... it was a JOKE! :P)

Most if not all western religions have had their share of of abuses and destroyed their fair share of people. And for all I know eastern religions might have dirty laundry. I have no data for those.

And if you don't believe me, I have a few words for you: "Crusades" (Christian) "Spanish Inquisition" (Catholic) "Jihad" (Muslim both ancient and current) "West Bank" (Jewish oppression of Palestinians) "Polygamy" (Mormon) "Kosovo" (Christian genocide of muslims) "Bloody Mary" (queen of england that tried to force england back to catholicism after the establishment of the Anglican church). "9/11." "Taliban" I could go on.

The great schisms of the catholic church have killed or harmed more people than all of Scientology combined (Council of Nicea, Orthodox vs. Catholic, Protestent Reformation, etc, etc). The practices of Chistianity have destroyed more cultures and beliefs than all the others (witness Cortez's destruction of Mayan culture). The loss of paganism in Rome.

The closest parallel to the abuses of Scientology are the catholic churches destruction of elements that it found were becoming too powerful (massacre of the Knights Templar, the genesis of the "bad luck" of Friday the 13th). Also the forced "titheing" of the christian church which made the Vatican one of the richest cities in the world even during the most horrible circumstances of the black plague. And don't think the church didn't rape the parishoners blind to the detriment of the thier survival. "Salem Witch Trials." etc.

And it's not all about religion either. Let me throw some more words out. "Slavery" "Liberia" "Somalia" "Segregation" (the abuses that made the Civil Rights movement necessary). "Apartheid."

Hopefully, in many years, people will look back at this and recognize it for what is. A very dark day in a spiritually based movement. Mohommad was a megolomaniac and power hungry and the genesis of the Muslim faith was to achieve veneration for himself. And yet no one questions the validity of the religiosity of Islam. John Smith wanted to have a harem. Have you ever read the book of Mormon? It's almost as wierd as Xenu. And yet no one quesions to religious nature of the Latter Day Saints church.

Now the second point.

The reason that people are against the damaging practices of Scientology is because of the increased social conciousness in the modern person. The reports of current abuses are so wide ranging because of the internet.
Imagine if this was a religion started in a socialist state. No one would know of the abuses because it would be suppressed.

This is not a call to stop protesting or to stop demanding an end to abuses. But a call to realize that you have much more freedom and much more of a voice than any other group of detractors in history. Use common sense. Allow people to believe what they want.

Make your comments. Make your opinions known. Call attention to every violation of law that you are able to. Push forward all the legal sanctions you can against the corrupters and the bullies.

Yes, Scientologists need to show more respect of other beliefs and stop trying to push the church's agenda in all things.

BUT.

If you don't like the beliefs of Scientology, don't demand that I stop believing myself. I might be crazy. But I am not harming you in being so.
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Lordceptimos

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Post Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:12 am

Anonspring wrote:
Sorry but, of all the defenses for Scientology, this has got to be the worst.



and? which ever was the best defenses for $cientology?
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.
- John Milton, Paradise lost .329
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Anonspring

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Post Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:13 am

Well, I can safely say that I at least stay consistent in my beliefs. I'm an atheist. :twisted: I reject all religions precisely for this reason. As a child I was a victim of Confucianist thought. My parents, much like Scientology, had sought to quash all signs of rebellion in me. Everything was my fault, and all the abuse they heaped upon me had been "for my own good". I know all too well that kind of treatment and the harm it can do to a person.

I believe you have the right to believe what you want to believe (so long as you hurt no one, which is the sticking point isn't it?), but I also have the right to criticize it, make fun of it, and hell, even offend you. We do not have the right to not be offended in the US, and I'm glad that this is the case. In turn, you have every right to make fun of my beliefs, and me. I do not believe that someone's faith is off limits to criticism just because that person holds it sacred. Then again, what would an evil atheist like me know?
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Lordceptimos

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Post Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:24 am

Anonspring wrote:Well, I can safely say that I at least stay consistent in my beliefs. I'm an atheist. :twisted: I reject all religions precisely for this reason. As a child I was a victim of Confucianist thought. My parents, much like Scientology, had sought to quash all signs of rebellion in me. Everything was my fault, and all the abuse they heaped upon me had been "for my own good". I know all too well that kind of treatment and the harm it can do to a person.

I believe you have the right to believe what you want to believe (so long as you hurt no one, which is the sticking point isn't it?), but I also have the right to criticize it, make fun of it, and hell, even offend you. We do not have the right to not be offended in the US, and I'm glad that this is the case. In turn, you have every right to make fun of my beliefs, and me. I do not believe that someone's faith is off limits to criticism just because that person holds it sacred. Then again, what would an evil atheist like me know?



could be worse....that reminded me of viscious circle with dane cook... heh oh well.
to each their own.
Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n.
- John Milton, Paradise lost .329
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gogogadget

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Post Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:47 pm

What is interesting about Grundy's list is it is a list of practical personality traits, rather than anything I'd typify as spiritual. Not that I'm a big fan of a lot of what passes for "spiritual".

I've noticed this in other Scientology apologia; practitioner point to attributes that I'd more likely assign to "character building" than theology. One chappie even credited Scientology with making him a better athlete (!).

It seems to plow the same ground, benefit-wise, as prosperity gospel Protestantism and confucianism.

Just an observation, Grundy. I'm glad you were able to benefit from your exposure to the church.
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nikkoleranger

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Post Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:01 am

Re: OKAY .. I will be the first

[quote="Grundy"]There was someone over at ESMB asking specifically for positives. They were writing a paper and they felt they had enough of the negatives.

So this was my response to their questions:

[quote]Originally Posted by Raptorjesus
What was the main attraction to Scientology? [/quote]

To me, it was like coming home. I grew up with Scientology parents that never pushed it on us (except for a little when I was 5 years old lol).

The concept of clear and OT was enthralling.

Also, I pretty much joined staff when I started out. I liked the concept of laid-out policy and procedures. It made sense to me.

I just felt really comfortable in this group.

[quote]Originally Posted by Raptorjesus
What were some good things that you have learned from being a Scientologist? [/quote]

When I became involved, I was a shy, quiet, introverted individual. I disliked religions (especially christian ones) because they used to be pushed on me by those that were "born-again." I had no real friends, couldn't communicate well.

Through Scientology, I learned to respect and admire religions of all type.

I became a much more communicative individual and became friends with hundreds and hundreds of people.

I became able to communicate to complete strangers (both Scientologists and non-Scientologists) without self-conciousness.

I became able to listen to people and help them out when they were upset or distraught (not using "auditing" or some such, just being able to talk to them).

I became able to observe things and confront things around me.

I learned how to cope with huge and overwhelming problems.

I learned how to educate people (I am a teacher now).

I learned how to study, obtain and quickly use new information as it was presented to me, and evaluate importances within a body of information.

I learned how to hold a position of authority based solely on comportment and skill.

I learned how to take and give orders.

I learned how to disagree with someone without giving offense.

I learned how to avoid drugs and excessive alchohol without creating a dangerous environment (important in my field lol).

I learned how to handle argumentative parties and settle tense situations down.

I learned how to handle trust, when to give it, and how to keep it.

I learned to control my environment as necessary to get a needed result.

I learned how to take criticism, whether valid or not, and how to give it when necessary.

I learned the value of giving help to those people that I can help.

These are some of the things I learned as a Scientologist.

Looking back at it now, I have to admit, it made me the person I am today. There are some negative aspects, to be sure. But there were a lot of positive aspects for me as well.[/quote]

Grundy,I learned all of these things and more, and got paid by the U.S. Army to learn them.
RLTW
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