Mind over Matter

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ahnonnymaus

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Post Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:28 pm

Mind over Matter

While there is obviously quite a bit I absolutely loathe about the CoS, if you look at the tech itself, there is the general feeling of 'mind over matter' when it comes to your troubles.

As someone who has control issues (if I don't feel in control of my life/situation I get very upset/anxious/angry), I understand the importance of feeling like you are the master of your troubles-- that if you put your mind to it, you can fix it. I think a lot of the tech teaches this, and I think that's a good skill and mindset for anyone to have.

I'm a firm believer in the ability of a human to achieve whatever they want-- but that for some people it's harder than others. I believe there are almost always solutions for problems, even though it might not be what you always want or expect.

I think in some ways the tech in this regard has been taken a bit too blindingly far, but the concept is a good one-- something that instills confidence in people who may not otherwise have it.

Also, as an aside, it's already been discussed in a number of articles about the self-hypnosis aspect of E-metering (that is what I personally believe it is, I understand this is obviously not what Scientologists believe). I believe hypnosis is a very useful therapy and that a person's belief/outlook can affect their health to an extreme degree.

I don't know if this is really 'defending' Scientology... But more, pointing out that it's certainly not all bad. Not at all. If it makes people happy and strive to do good things, it's fine to believe in it.
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Holden Caulfield

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Post Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:13 pm

Re: Mind over Matter

ahnonnymaus wrote:While there is obviously quite a bit I absolutely loathe about the CoS, if you look at the tech itself, there is the general feeling of 'mind over matter' when it comes to your troubles.

As someone who has control issues (if I don't feel in control of my life/situation I get very upset/anxious/angry), I understand the importance of feeling like you are the master of your troubles-- that if you put your mind to it, you can fix it. I think a lot of the tech teaches this, and I think that's a good skill and mindset for anyone to have.

I'm a firm believer in the ability of a human to achieve whatever they want-- but that for some people it's harder than others. I believe there are almost always solutions for problems, even though it might not be what you always want or expect.

I think in some ways the tech in this regard has been taken a bit too blindingly far, but the concept is a good one-- something that instills confidence in people who may not otherwise have it.


Definetly. You know, this tech is a product of its time. There are a lot of ideas of radical individualism in the teachings of LRH and very little on social contexts.

People CANNOT acheive whatever they want beacuse we live in a dog-eat-dog world where there exists class differences, social stratification, nepotism and the idea of "each one to his own" which is strengthened by the culture of capitalism.
"If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth."
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Puddlewhite

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Post Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:10 pm

If i can add my opinion as an Anonymous...

Anonymous does not have a problem with the beliefs of anyone, and that includes Scientologists. I have been using this phrase so often, that i have it on quickcopy now.
Want to believe that Xenu really exists? Meh, fine by us. Do you think that Allah is great, and Mohhamed was his profet? Whatever gets you trough the day. Offcourse, we will make fun of you, just like we make fun of jews, crisitians, budists, wikka, you name it. The same as we make fun of ourselves.
But when you start stalking, sueing, killing people, when you disconnect families and make ten year old children work 10 hour shifts, in the name of your beliefs, then we have a problem.

Anonymous has one very usefull expretion -LURK MOAR! It means know what the fuck youre talking about, before posting. Its obvious why we protest to anyone who has given anit-scientology forums more than a 5 minutes of reading.
Let this not discourage you, my first three posts in the Anonymous comunity got me banned. 3 times in a row. Thats how you learn.
I guess what im saying is, LURK MOAR, and youll be fine.
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Anonspring

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Post Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:35 pm

Sure, it can be enpowering...up to a certain point.

It's easy to fall into the trap of "I can do it if I just put my mind to it." It's a mindset that can get a person easily depressed if he/she fails.

Because sometimes life doesn't work that way. Sometimes life doesn't have solutions. And sometimes the problem is no one's fault. It's just as harmful to keep blaming yourself for all your problems as it is to give up because you feel utterly helpless.

I know because I was of the former category all my life, and I was miserable. It took a very, very long time to stop blaming myself, and I still go into long bouts of soul-searching and self-defeating hate for failing at what I can help. As with anything, a balance needs to be maintained to ensure success.
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ahnonnymaus

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Post Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:21 pm

Puddlewhite wrote:If i can add my opinion as an Anonymous...

Anonymous does not have a problem with the beliefs of anyone, and that includes Scientologists. I have been using this phrase so often, that i have it on quickcopy now.
Want to believe that Xenu really exists? Meh, fine by us. Do you think that Allah is great, and Mohhamed was his profet? Whatever gets you trough the day. Offcourse, we will make fun of you, just like we make fun of jews, crisitians, budists, wikka, you name it. The same as we make fun of ourselves.
But when you start stalking, sueing, killing people, when you disconnect families and make ten year old children work 10 hour shifts, in the name of your beliefs, then we have a problem.

Anonymous has one very usefull expretion -LURK MOAR! It means know what the fuck youre talking about, before posting. Its obvious why we protest to anyone who has given anit-scientology forums more than a 5 minutes of reading.
Let this not discourage you, my first three posts in the Anonymous comunity got me banned. 3 times in a row. Thats how you learn.
I guess what im saying is, LURK MOAR, and youll be fine.


Uh.. I don't think you get the point of this subforum? Or the topic at hand? This is for defending Scientology. You're stating the same tired thing over and over that everyone already KNOWS and that I omitted from my post because there's no point to it. I have the same issues that you do, but that's not what I addressed in my post. In your own advice, LURK MOAR.


Anyway, I still disagree that you can't do what you set your mind to. I've lived my life finding the third choice when I'm given two options. It takes creativity and open eyes, but it can be done. You also have to be willing to take a different path sometimes than what you originally intended-- change with the world as it changes around you. Your goals may change too.

And sometimes what you want may take such a ridiculous amount of time and effort that it isn't worth it, in comparison.

Yes, people can get depressed when they fail, of course. You should always expect to take steps backwards and meet failure. But every time you try, the easier it is to get back on your feet. Mistakes breed experience, and experience gives you the upper hand.

I think you guys are assuming that 'putting your mind to it' just means barging forward regardless of obstacles. That's not how it works. It's more of a dance, and a winding path around obstacles, with breaks now and then to let yourself rest and reorient yourself. It's persistance in the face of failure and massive obstacles. It's patience, above all else.
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Anonspring

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Post Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:43 pm

ahnonnymaus wrote:I think you guys are assuming that 'putting your mind to it' just means barging forward regardless of obstacles. That's not how it works. It's more of a dance, and a winding path around obstacles, with breaks now and then to let yourself rest and reorient yourself. It's persistance in the face of failure and massive obstacles. It's patience, above all else.


It works well enough for everyday things, I agree. But that's not what I'm referring to, and that's not what Scientology has been focusing on. You're talking about relatively simple goals that mostly depend on you. For instance, getting into medical school, or winning a dance competition. But sometimes those goals can be hindered by outside forces that can't be controlled.

If you "put your mind to it" can you overcome a chronic illness? If you put your mind to it, can you make yourself love someone?

It's things like the above that Scientology claims its tech can help overcome, and it's that extreme that I find very disagreeable. People need to realize that no, some things cannot be helped, but that's OK. It really is.

As I said before, telling yourself that you can fix a problem if you focus is a very healthy, good mindset to have, for the most part. But there needs to be a limit, and there needs to be an acknowledgment of reality.

I think you and I agree with each other, but I found your post to still be a bit too extreme for me, and wanted clarify what kind of things I was referring to.
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ahnonnymaus

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Post Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:29 pm

Anonspring wrote:
It works well enough for everyday things, I agree. But that's not what I'm referring to, and that's not what Scientology has been focusing on. You're talking about relatively simple goals that mostly depend on you. For instance, getting into medical school, or winning a dance competition. But sometimes those goals can be hindered by outside forces that can't be controlled.

If you "put your mind to it" can you overcome a chronic illness? If you put your mind to it, can you make yourself love someone?

It's things like the above that Scientology claims its tech can help overcome, and it's that extreme that I find very disagreeable. People need to realize that no, some things cannot be helped, but that's OK. It really is.

As I said before, telling yourself that you can fix a problem if you focus is a very healthy, good mindset to have, for the most part. But there needs to be a limit, and there needs to be an acknowledgment of reality.

I think you and I agree with each other, but I found your post to still be a bit too extreme for me, and wanted clarify what kind of things I was referring to.


Well, I'm not always so good at expressing the middle ground I do acknowledge. I was trying to focus more on the can-do attitude and self confidence, though perhaps I left out too much on the unreasonable claims and promises. Sometimes I assume too much that people will take everything within reason.

Just as important as self confidence is also a firm grasp of reality. It's a constant struggle between the two-- after all, reality is not always well defined. Some people define it simply as 'what they know to be true' (hmm, that sounds familiar...). And the great thinkers and creators of time have often gone against common sense and thought to break through to something unimagined and new.

I suppose I don't believe it should ever be one or the other. Push your limits, but don't break yourself trying to do the impossible. Deciding when to do which is when your own judgement comes into play.
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Anonspring

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Post Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:39 pm

Well, the reason why I focused on this is because during the early 90's Japan was overwhelmed with hundreds of these "self-empowerment" cults. And for its followers, it certainly caused far more harm than good. A student who was being bullied at school was told that it was all her fault. In some ways, yes, if you constantly fit a victim mentality, you're more likely to get bullied. However, no one is responsible for the actions of another and blaming the victim gets no where.

Scientology is only unique in that it has a sci-fi background and won't accept followers with no money. In every other sense it is exactly the same. Once the Japanese figures this out Scientology is going to get a lot of hard knocks from the Japanese government.
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Holden Caulfield

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Post Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:01 pm

Anonspring wrote:Well, the reason why I focused on this is because during the early 90's Japan was overwhelmed with hundreds of these "self-empowerment" cults. And for its followers, it certainly caused far more harm than good. A student who was being bullied at school was told that it was all her fault. In some ways, yes, if you constantly fit a victim mentality, you're more likely to get bullied. However, no one is responsible for the actions of another and blaming the victim gets no where.

Scientology is only unique in that it has a sci-fi background and won't accept followers with no money. In every other sense it is exactly the same. Once the Japanese figures this out Scientology is going to get a lot of hard knocks from the Japanese government.


Do you live in Japan?
"If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth."
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Anonspring

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Post Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:05 pm

Yes.
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ahnonnymaus

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Post Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:22 pm

Anonspring wrote:Well, the reason why I focused on this is because during the early 90's Japan was overwhelmed with hundreds of these "self-empowerment" cults. And for its followers, it certainly caused far more harm than good. A student who was being bullied at school was told that it was all her fault. In some ways, yes, if you constantly fit a victim mentality, you're more likely to get bullied. However, no one is responsible for the actions of another and blaming the victim gets no where.

Scientology is only unique in that it has a sci-fi background and won't accept followers with no money. In every other sense it is exactly the same. Once the Japanese figures this out Scientology is going to get a lot of hard knocks from the Japanese government.


Well, in the case of bullying it's going to depend on the situation. As someone who was teased and bullied in school I always wondered what I could have done to stop it, or if I could have even if I knew how. It really will always depend on the person and the situation.

I think it's going to be different with children regardless, simply because many do not lack the adult maturity and resources necessary to accomplish the changes they may want. If I had the maturity I had now back then, I probably wouldn't have had as much trouble. But I didn't.

Anyway, I think part of the missing equation is that even though you may not be able to change things right /now/, you can change things in the future. Or, you can just wait for change, because things change all the time. Working towards a goal is not a direct path, as I've said before-- often times other skills need to be worked on before you can accomplish your final goal.

For instance, in my case, I needed the maturity and wisdom I gained with age to stop caring so much about what people said about me/thought about me. When I no longer valued their opinion, what they said affected me far less, and I worked from there.

Again, it's different for everyone, and quite honestly I don't believe in an easy cure-all general solution for every one of life's problems. I think that's a blatant lie used to sell to a society that believes in and expects easy anwers.

And again, it also depends on the execution of an idea-- the idea of self-empowerment and confidence is a good one, but it's the execution that can make or break it.
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Puddlewhite

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Post Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:37 am

Youre supposed to defend scientology, in this subforum, which you fail to do. Also, what i said, maybe in a wee bit roundabout way, is that what you say is quite allright and not under dispute... at least for this forum. It will, however be quite at place in the Off-topic and humour section, where you can chatter away.
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bosshog

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Post Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:53 pm

Re: Mind over Matter

ahnonnymaus wrote:While there is obviously quite a bit I absolutely loathe about the CoS, if you look at the tech itself, there is the general feeling of 'mind over matter' when it comes to your troubles.

As someone who has control issues (if I don't feel in control of my life/situation I get very upset/anxious/angry), I understand the importance of feeling like you are the master of your troubles-- that if you put your mind to it, you can fix it. I think a lot of the tech teaches this, and I think that's a good skill and mindset for anyone to have.

I'm a firm believer in the ability of a human to achieve whatever they want-- but that for some people it's harder than others. I believe there are almost always solutions for problems, even though it might not be what you always want or expect.

I think in some ways the tech in this regard has been taken a bit too blindingly far, but the concept is a good one-- something that instills confidence in people who may not otherwise have it.

Also, as an aside, it's already been discussed in a number of articles about the self-hypnosis aspect of E-metering (that is what I personally believe it is, I understand this is obviously not what Scientologists believe). I believe hypnosis is a very useful therapy and that a person's belief/outlook can affect their health to an extreme degree.

I don't know if this is really 'defending' Scientology... But more, pointing out that it's certainly not all bad. Not at all. If it makes people happy and strive to do good things, it's fine to believe in it.


I have tried to come up with a profile of people this appeals to, and many who are upset / angry / out of control / hopeless / depressed / anxious / generalized and aggrandized anxiety issues ... or people in business or people who are idealists and truly want to make a difference, and it appeals to a broad spectrum of people.

However, all the rules, the money and the control...

ruin it

The School of Metaphysics teaches the same stuff.. only better in my opinion, or to study it on your own, Wallace B. Wattles in his books from the turn of the century

Hubbard goofed the floof and turns my stomach to listen to his pretentious fake voice....

Right away my instinct sees through it.
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bosshog

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Post Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:10 pm

Anonspring wrote:Well, the reason why I focused on this is because during the early 90's Japan was overwhelmed with hundreds of these "self-empowerment" cults. And for its followers, it certainly caused far more harm than good. A student who was being bullied at school was told that it was all her fault. In some ways, yes, if you constantly fit a victim mentality, you're more likely to get bullied. However, no one is responsible for the actions of another and blaming the victim gets no where.

Scientology is only unique in that it has a sci-fi background and won't accept followers with no money. In every other sense it is exactly the same. Once the Japanese figures this out Scientology is going to get a lot of hard knocks from the Japanese government.


Oh good I can't wait...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmWXrJMM79M

This forum is here so that just in case anyone in the freezone or pro Co$ will accidentally click on a real link.... this is fluf and nonsense as the bad far outweighs the good in any Co$ and Hubbard's needles in his ass of Visteral and his own son committing suicide (Quentin) and the other one speaking out against him and on and on and on... how is it smart not to use the vast knowledge of psychiatry to prevent yourself from getting brainwashed?
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James McGuigan

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Post Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:05 pm

that if you put your mind to it, you can fix it.


Definition: Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will. - Crowley

Postulate: ANY required Change may be effected by application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner through the proper medium to the proper object.


A Hindu philosopher once described conciousness/universe as millions of diamonds hanging in the sky, each reflecting the light off each other.

In this context, magick could be described as changing your own light to affect the reflections of other lights.

However you can create a problem when you get too far out of sync with everybody else, and it goes from being magick to simply being delusional.


Personally, I end up pushing myself very hard in this type of mentality, even it it means I am still learning the art of how to relax. But for me, failure and depression are usually resolved by re-evaluating my goals and solutions, and remaining open-minded about both where I am going and how I am going to get there.
Freedom is a choice. Choose to be yourself, choose to speak your truth and do so with compassion. And above all else, choose to be not afraid. If I can't dance, its not my revolution.
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Terril park

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Post Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:56 pm

James McGuigan wrote:Definition: Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will. - Crowley

Postulate: ANY required Change may be effected by application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner through the proper medium to the proper object.


A Hindu philosopher once described conciousness/universe as millions of diamonds hanging in the sky, each reflecting the light off each other.

In this context, magick could be described as changing your own light to affect the reflections of other lights.

However you can create a problem when you get too far out of sync with everybody else, and it goes from being magick to simply being delusional.
[snip]



I'm one of those rare scientologists who think Crowley heavily influenced Hubbard, and that it was a good thing. Some may like to look at Crowleys " The Naples arrangement" and compare it to Hubbard's factors. I think that illustrates that they are both genius's, or genii?

The Crowley quote above is similar to something that I heard from someone, probably quoting Hubbard, that anything can be accomplished with the right gradient. I don't consider that an absolute truth, but a very useful idea that one can apply. Crowley in fact gave an example about pen and paper.

Re going out of sync with others, Hubbard expressed a similar idea with his writings on ART. He in essence said one should always use enough reality to communicate with the audience, or you will go out of communication. Maybe I do him a disservice here as I havn't read that material in many years. I think he made some good points but the new and revolutionary lead people's perceptions to new plateau's.

Some examples that may repudiate his ideas are Stravinsky's " Rite of Spring", booed and much throwing of vegetables on its first performance, now
almost part of " classic" repetoire. Kandinsky's abstract art, now also of classic status. Then, here is a different category sort of, Bach's Art of Fugue,
considered as a teaching device rather than music to be performed, until this century. Its a sort of reverse of the above in that in his time Bach was looking backward to traditional forms and definitely not avant garde, and was still misunderstood for a few hundred years. Must give a plug to this music,
just google U tube with " Art of Fugue". :) And use tape on your socks. :)

Hubbard in the area of personal improvement, therapy, did use simple language and IMO did so mostly brilliantly.

So what can Dianetics/ scientology do for one? First one has to look at it
without the COS connection which is cultic.

As a basic therapy people come to those who practice related subjects to scientology, or scientology itself, and they may handle an issue that has been making their life a misery. I include here " mainstream" schools of psychotherapy that one may study in university. I believe its beyond dispute that this is a service needed and wanted by humanity.

Scientology, and various offshoots, and maybe some mainstream schools of thought which I'm not familiar with, also look at doing more than just handling
a problem of great urgency for the individual. They look at a renaissance of human ability for the indivuidual via long term programs of self realisation.

In its purest form, away from COS fanaticism scn is quite rigorous and logical in the main. One has original OT 6 having as part of its results getting
a postcard or whatever from someone with purely " Theta " comm, and a very similar result on the suppressed persons rundown. OK. Maybe these are not so obviously rigorously logical. But try " The Factors".

http://www.bonafidescientology.org/Append/01/page03.htm

This may not be the only, best, perfect, answer to the question " Why Existence?" It is the best one I know. The accompanying therapy, discovered by many bright minds working with Hubbard, may not be perfect as he admits,
it is however workable.

Some may see me as some sort of an apologist, and yes maybe. But I also
regularly ride with the masked raiders, Zombies, Pirates, Parrots, Cake eaters
etc. :)
http://www.freewebs .com/techoutside thecofs/
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bosshog

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Post Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:47 pm

Re: Mind over Matter

ahnonnymaus wrote:While there is obviously quite a bit I absolutely loathe about the CoS, if you look at the tech itself, there is the general feeling of 'mind over matter' when it comes to your troubles.

As someone who has control issues (if I don't feel in control of my life/situation I get very upset/anxious/angry), I understand the importance of feeling like you are the master of your troubles-- that if you put your mind to it, you can fix it. I think a lot of the tech teaches this, and I think that's a good skill and mindset for anyone to have.

I'm a firm believer in the ability of a human to achieve whatever they want-- but that for some people it's harder than others. I believe there are almost always solutions for problems, even though it might not be what you always want or expect.

I think in some ways the tech in this regard has been taken a bit too blindingly far, but the concept is a good one-- something that instills confidence in people who may not otherwise have it.

Also, as an aside, it's already been discussed in a number of articles about the self-hypnosis aspect of E-metering (that is what I personally believe it is, I understand this is obviously not what Scientologists believe). I believe hypnosis is a very useful therapy and that a person's belief/outlook can affect their health to an extreme degree.

I don't know if this is really 'defending' Scientology... But more, pointing out that it's certainly not all bad. Not at all. If it makes people happy and strive to do good things, it's fine to believe in it.
'


NO OFFENSE BUT DUH YOU DON'T NEED THE CHURCH / CULT TO TELL YOU MIND OVER MATTER STUDY METAPHYSICS... DAYUM,

WHAT ARE YOU GUYS PROBLEM?

HOW WEAK ARE YOU ?aSK YOURSELF AND ANSWER TO THE QUESTION

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