Free Scientologists

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theo

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Post Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:55 pm

Hi everybody. I am new here. Mainly I joined the ex-scientology kids because I want to see more views on Scientology and views which are contrary. In my free time, I like to spend time discussing with people on the subject.

I have even created a group on facebook called Free Scientologists. The reason why "Free" I can explain to anyone who cares.

It would be great if I could help some kids of Scientologists who are separated from their parents, understand better what is going on in Scientology and so, be able to confront the situation much better.

Scientology has created a big impact around the world. This alone should and does make all those who disagree with any kind of betterment wonder how come.

The reason is simple. Scientology is different and is a thing needed today.

That doesn't mean that the current Scientology as it is being managed by the so called management is the pure version of Scientology and that it does give the results promised.

On the contrary there is evidence that the church of Scientology is being run by people who are not Scientologists, have interests more related to a global network of world leaders who see Scientology as their best solution to control the masses from now on.

It is obvious that other religions have no impact on the masses anymore, especially on young people. Scientology is used as the new world religion in an era of globalization.

The fact that the rules in Scientology are made now by International Management rather than by Ron's policy is a proof of how far out they have gone with it.

It's one thing to criticize and another to have looked at something and then, knowing what it is, express an opinion based on facts. Many people do not care to look at something but can easily criticize.

Scientology is rather big to be pulled down by any small group of people. Especially now that is supported by international financial and other interests.

The only way to undo this is to see for yourself what it is and don't listen to what others have to say.

I am afraid though that in an era where technology has taken over Man once again, young people do not see anything thrilling in studying philosophy. IF they knew that they could achieve things easier and they would be more able in life maybe that would be something for them. But today what is needed and wanted by a young man is mostly fun and little work. That is a big problem in a universe which demands constant action by one. Young people are not accustomed to too much effort and action. Their education is crippled and they have no certainty in themselves.

A perfect scenario for those monopolists who like to cultivate slaves for their businesses.

Scientology is a silent revolution against the monopolists. Only Free People can approach it, those disgusted by the system. Those who are OK with the system, part of it, contented with it, controlling it, of course, are against it or do not care about Scientology.

But still those free people have to be sharp in their understandings and certainty if they are to remain free. And Scientologists have been enslaved by the American government and those behind.

You as young people could do something about it. It's not Scientology to blame. After all, as I am telling you, the current Scientology is enslaved. Those to blame are those who run the world, who have taken over Scientology and hit it from inside and outside.

I will say more, but I am sure some will not like it. Freedom of speech. Freedom of thought. Young people ought to be more open minded. Not fanatics. They ought to know how to look and where to look. Otherwise they are just guided puppets. And I am afraid those shouting at Scientology right now are just guided puppets who don't even know that Scientology does not belong to Scientologists but the Global Enslavers who see Scientology as their best chance to control the minds of the people of Earth.

My body has the age of 47 at this moment. That doesn't mean much except that I have seen some older world, like in the '70s, '80s and '90s.
The world we are living now is a much faster world. If you cannot see the differences between two things, like the brake and the throttle, for example, you are toast. You are recruited for some cause and you don't even know who you are working for.

Do the Anonymous guys know who they are working for? Well, hell no. They work for the American government, without knowing it. Why? Because they advertise the version of Scientology (yes, their protests are good advertising for the church of Scientology) that the Global Enslavers have created and give to people.

I myself have been declared a Suppressive Person by that church. But I can diffentiate between the people and the teachings of the philosophy. I don't blame Scientology because Miscavige works for the Global Enslavers and suppresses any freedom of speech much more anyone who wants Standard Tech in Scientology.

I can speak or I can leave, depends on what you guys want. I am a free man, I am no fanatic, and I don't support anyone. I just look for myself. And what I see is millions of young people opposing each other, instead of working with each other with a common purpose. What a waste! But I don't blame them since there is no one to put there some real common purpose for anyone.

Adults live for their survival. They work like slaves, try to take care of their children, others try to be saved and save others. They have no time for a common purpose. They have time to support and vote for those who make wars.

There are no leaders in the world. Real, good leaders who can inspire young people. Young people dislike politics and religions because they see no point in them. They are right. There is no point in them as they are. They all serve their own purposes.

Bye now and thanks for listening,
Theo Sismanides
THEO SISMANIDES, EX-SO
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Grundy

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Post Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:41 pm

I split this off from my old thread as I felt it should really be it's own.

Welcome to the board. We always welcome different viewpoints and opinions. (Although the current incarnation of the "church" finds that "PTS Type H".)
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theo

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Post Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:37 pm

Hi Grundy,

Thanks. I like the "current incarnation" of the church. It really fits. Now about the PTS Type H (thanks for reminding me), I really don't care. I know Scientology works. I don't need anybody to verify it for me.

Now, to be more down to earth, as low as it gets, so that you have no flows from humans coming down to you, as OTs, are looked like ghosts and need to be brought down, I like to talk with young people since they are more cool. Cool is good. Scientology (its current reincarnation) as most religions is staying behind, building a model which is like "we are the good guys and the rest are the bad guys, we are the smart guys and the rest are the morons, we are the innocent and the rest are full of sh...".

I don't care about what they say, because the High Priests of that organization are full of sh... They just pretend, pretend, pretend. Now, they get it with Anonymous. What a momentum suddenly from those guys. Gathering all over the world. I have to admit, it's amazing!!

So, thanks for being around, I read some of your posts. I don't know many people around here, but I wanted to give a helping hand to the kids who have been in the S.O. and I wanted to tell them that they are heros. It was so tough for kids there. Nobody would care about them. They hardly had any toys, not to speak about money. It was a shame and a disaster. I am now a father and I know what I am talking about. Those kids and those families have paid their dues to mankind big time...

No matter how much BPC they have, we must validate them for what they tried to do, did or what they can do.

Scientology (the current reincarnation LOL) goes down the chute. It loses good people to collecting big sums of money. Nothing worst than that. You cannot build an organization on collecting money. That's a subproduct. So the mainstream Scientology will become as all other religions, under the reigns of those who rule the world, and it depends on some people around the world to do something about it. But a new leader is needed. I am sorry, but nothing will move until one person comes in the scene and decides to turn that around.

I want to thank you for letting me communicate. I have my BPC, too. Breaking my communication lines with fellow Scientologists, not letting me discuss without prejudice what we see in front of us, has been my worst nightmare. So thanks again.

Much Love,
Theo Sismanides
THEO SISMANIDES, EX-SO
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Grundy

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Post Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:47 pm

I know what you mean.

I personally find much value in the "technical" aspects of Scn, but the mother church is .... insane.

I may become a freezoner at some point.

I think the whole structure needs a redo. The rigid command lines, and so forth, need to be broken.

Each organization as a separate church, only answerable to themselves. People allowed to audit according to their training in the field, with the organization providing only advice and direction when needed. Books published by outside manufacturers with the profit margin set as most books in the world. No weekly monies sent to mother church, other than a 1% of the income licensing fee, which ONLY pays for a right to be listed as with the mother church as a church and for advice needed on promotional campaigns and such.

Something .. it needs to change.
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Puddlewhite

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Post Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:50 pm

First off, id like to say, im no ex-scilon. I also didnt read all that was posted, as it was too long. However i understand that you want to show ex-scilons that $cientology aint bad? That they shoud forgive it, somehow? On that note, i think this is the wrong place. From what ife heard, there is noone who has forgiven $cientology more that people on this forum. Forgiven, but not forgotten. As it shoud be. And things like $cientology shoud not be forgotten, ever.
You comming here, and asking if anyone needs help , in my eyes, is very much like all those germans that claim they never knew nothing about the hollocaust (dont get your panties in a bundle, im not saing $cientology is like the nazis, im comparing you, a victim of brainwashing, to other people who have been brainwashed). ''I didnt know'' is not a real excuse, everyone in $cientology ''knows'', they just choose to ignore it.
So far on the subject. Now, since this is the ''defend $cientology'' forum, id like to ask some questions. As you are most crtanly aware, you dont have to answer, but since you try and come as a ''new'' tipe of scilon, maye you woud be willing to actually talk about what scientology IS, right now. And what it shoud be, or will be, or can be, or coud be.
- Did i hear you correctly? No more money? You know this will put an end to the flashy orgs in the middle of the cityes? And your super-dooper superpower building wont be finished? Scientology will become very much like a crishna-sect - weird little group of half-mad idealists doing their strange rituals.
- What about your beloved LRon? Are you actually prepared to admit the truth about his life? What he really was? Or its still not OK to talk about your beloved founder, in this new $cientology of yours?
- What about the multiple, and various, times $cientology has broken laws (still does), and violated (still does) the human rights? Are you....


Hmm end here is when i red your original post from top to bottom.
Its too bad i wasted so much time on a conspiracy theorist, and a nutjob (im not saing you are a nutjob, im saing i think you are one). From what i get, you seem to e happy with your life, and thats wonderfull. One word of advice thow- people dont like to (nor can) be forced to be happy, they must reach it themselves.

To everyone else- sorry i got carryed away. I just though we had an actual Scilon willing to talk.
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anonfemme

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Post Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:01 pm

Hi Theo, maybe we can help you with something? Seems like you have a lot of things to say about people you don't know. Can we help answer any questions you have? Maybe that will clear up the confusion? At least then you will be living by your philosophy of "don't listen to others, find out for yourself"?. Have you ever spoken to any anon?

Adults live for their survival. They work like slaves, try to take care of their children, others try to be saved and save others. They have no time for a common purpose. They have time to support and vote for those who make wars.


I actually live for happiness and love! :P :lol: :P

I hope you find your truth Theo!
Much love. xx
Image
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Amy

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Post Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:27 pm

What I thin

Guys, I think Theo and others have the viewpoint that Scientology technology and philosophies itself work for them, but that there are specific people or a person running the Church that is evil and corrupt. This doesn't mean the technology they have experienced was bad.

I personally know a lot of people who have that viewpoint and it should be respected. I personally have experienced many wonderful things from Scientology and for the most part, many wonderful people who have good intentions.

The problem is at this point, the amount of impact the leaders of the Church have had are pretty huge. In my personal opinion, many Scientologists know there is something wrong within the Church since DM took it over, but they still continue because they can get their "fix" while on course or in session and avoid getting wrapped up in the rest.

You have to respect this, however in my personal opinion and from everything I have learned growing up in Scientology, my gut tells me otherwise. My gut tells me I can no longer ignore the wrongdoings I see, and continue getting "what I can get out of it". I find this to be against my personal integrity and irresponsible.

If the person who runs and controls every move of the Church and religion right now lies, cheats, is physically abusive, and has bad intentions and purposes and is the one controlling every move that is made, every new technical release, every campaign, every policy application, how can we say the product he is producing of "Scientology" is okay. It's like saying that the person shooting the gun was evil, but the gun itself is not harmful. It's as harmful as the person controlling it!
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Grundy

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Post Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:06 pm

Re: What I thin

Amy wrote:It's like saying that the person shooting the gun was evil, but the gun itself is not harmful. It's as harmful as the person controlling it!


Well, the gun is harmful when the person controlling it is. But the gun is not harmful in and of itself. IMHO.

I know that Hubbard was a nut. I know he was power and money hungry. People starting religions tend to be egotistical maniacs. (Mohommad - Islam, Hubbard - Scientology, Smith - Mormon, Henry VIII - Anglican Christianity separate from Rome. Luther - I don't know about him. But Moses definately was a little vain.)

But, in this case. I happen to like the gun. I like playing with it. It made me happy many times. And I wasn't shooting at anyone ....
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theo

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Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:09 am

[quote="anonfemme"]Hi Theo, maybe we can help you with something? Seems like you have a lot of things to say about people you don't know. Can we help answer any questions you have? Maybe that will clear up the confusion? At least then you will be living by your philosophy of "don't listen to others, find out for yourself"?. Have you ever spoken to any anon?


Thanks. No I haven't. But I haven't seen any faces of any Anon. Nor have I heard any names. My name is Theo Sismanides, I am Greek, living in Athens and to be honest, I don't like anonymity, since I feel the person has something to hide, or is afraid of something. That's their problem, not mine, but I say there is something weird. Also the masks, which are ugly. I don't know who picked them up. You see, I am against the current Management of Scientology not because they violate rules (rules are made by people who have connections with vested interest and suppress anyone or anything that can be good). I used to be a lawyer and I am glad I left it for Scientology. So I am not defending those guys who are on top of Scientology.

I have to admit that I am impressed by the organizing of the Anonymous protest all around the world. Besides the fact that I don't like the masks and the hate message that comes from most of the protests against Scientology as a whole, I have to admit that people really carried their message through. I also like the fact that someone is impinging on those suppressives in the church. Even if it is the Anonymous guys and not the Freezone (ex Scientologists) who would have every right (but obviously not the nerve or interest or willingness) to protest against the management of Scientology and not Scientology as a whole.

A person is as sane as he/she can see differences.

Now, since you are telling me to look for myself and not listen to others, a thing which I practice, here I am, listening and talking with you and I can hear anything which I might not know about Anonymous. Although I feel (maybe I am wrong) that it's just a hate movement against Scientology as a whole not seeing anything good in Scientology and want to close it down. My viewpoint is that Scientology is good, believe or not, is needed for those young kids who have no God to believe since no God can listen to them these days and understand them, the Management of Scientology and the American government and those behind it are controlling now Scientology and run it in a way that makes robots (no L. Ron Hubbard didn't intend to make robots out of people) and that THEY need to be exposed and thrown away. But that's a dream because this planet and the rulers have a lot of power and are running the planet in an organized way.

So, correct me if I am wrong. Do anything you want with Scientology but understand that especially Anonymity can't do anything against such a name as Scientology because Scientology means knowing how to know. What does Anonymity mean? You see, I can be mean when I want and is needed. You guys need to understand that if you enter into this you will face people who want to protect Scientology even if they have been persecuted by its current Management. I am not forgiving anyone and especially for the kids in the SO I know it could be and it should be better. Those kids are heroes in a materialistic world which teaches them nothing else than money and power and sex and drugs and... rock'n'roll. Which are not bad at all if combined with some spiritual aspect in life. And in the current Scientology management they are faced in the SO with a marriage and an enforced abortion when the young girl is going to be pregnant. Oh, I can be mean with the current Management. Oh, I can say things about them and against them. The hell with all the rulers of the world who rule the world like a puppet and have their minions to sacrifice in the front raws while sitting back and looking at the battle. I have been in the front raws and I am still there from a different point of view now. And you and me, think we are fighting against each other, protecting different ideals when in fact we are playing THEIR game which is Devide and Conquer. The old good game of the suppressives.

Talk to you later.
THEO SISMANIDES, EX-SO
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theo

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Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:32 am

Re: What I thin

Amy wrote:Guys, I think Theo and others have the viewpoint that Scientology technology and philosophies itself work for them, but that there are specific people or a person running the Church that is evil and corrupt. This doesn't mean the technology they have experienced was bad.

I personally know a lot of people who have that viewpoint and it should be respected. I personally have experienced many wonderful things from Scientology and for the most part, many wonderful people who have good intentions.

The problem is at this point, the amount of impact the leaders of the Church have had are pretty huge. In my personal opinion, many Scientologists know there is something wrong within the Church since DM took it over, but they still continue because they can get their "fix" while on course or in session and avoid getting wrapped up in the rest.

You have to respect this, however in my personal opinion and from everything I have learned growing up in Scientology, my gut tells me otherwise. My gut tells me I can no longer ignore the wrongdoings I see, and continue getting "what I can get out of it". I find this to be against my personal integrity and irresponsible.

If the person who runs and controls every move of the Church and religion right now lies, cheats, is physically abusive, and has bad intentions and purposes and is the one controlling every move that is made, every new technical release, every campaign, every policy application, how can we say the product he is producing of "Scientology" is okay. It's like saying that the person shooting the gun was evil, but the gun itself is not harmful. It's as harmful as the person controlling it!


Hi Amy, Thanks. I agree with you. I salute you for being a kid in the SO or in Scientology organization. It is very difficult for a kid under the conditions DM developped.

Understand though that Scientology has been taken since the beginnings of the '80s. A thing not easily seen by an inexperienced eye.

I disagree on the "fix" thing. ARC is not a fix. ARC is Life. Without ARC everything perishes. I can understand you, though. You had your share of injustices and unfairness in life. I remember those kids in Denmark who didn't even have any toys to play. It was pathetic. No money, nothing. Very low havingness. And the AOSHEU was, my God, renovated and fancy and everything. And the kids were living in Corona in poor conditions without anything, sometimes not even food. Hell with them. I was no part of this. I am declared SP and I am proud of it now that I am talking to you. I have been declared a Suppressive by DM!! LOL I stood up for Standard Tech as this was my last fort. I wasn't going to give up on that one since I knew I was going to lose my integrity. Yes, many times I justified things which were non optimum within Scientology. But I never agreed to the altering of the Technology at which point I understood that DM and his company together with the American government are taking Scientology somewhere else.

The gun is good when you point it to a suppressive or a bully. It's even good when you shoot down a serial killer. Nothing wrong. On the contrary, you do good. The problem is that guns usually are in the hands of suppressive, bullies and serial killers. LOL. And they are shooting at you who stills thinks if what Theo said above is right or wrong. Homo sapiens is daily indoctrinated to check "his ethics". The "ethics" he is taught is to be tame and not harm anybody even when he is harmed by them. That's not ethics. That's robot conditioning and robot thinking. "Now, I will take this bolt out of and you will stay still and not move and not react and certainly you are not going to attack me, because I am your master and robots obey their masters. There's a good robot, there's a good homo sapiens". One thing I liked as I said about the Anonymous guys is that they reacted. I don't agree with their masks and Anonymity and the fact that they can't see anything good with Scientology, but they definitely reacted. They didn't want their bolt taken out. That's good. They reacted. Homo sapiens is conditioned to not react.

If you had reacted in the church (I don't know maybe you did), if you react now you will see more clearly. Otherwise it all becomes reactive and A=A=A. You know that. When you see the differences, much more when you do something about them, you can differentiate things and that makes you saner. That Scientology is what it is and represents some high goal philosophy for Man was not enough for me to decide to leave since it is run in a suppressive manner. You see, differentiation. Now, the fact that it is run by suppressives doesn't make me hate the whole thing. Again differentiation. That keeps me sane, and I can talk to you and Anonfemme and anyone without any prejudice. I can see the good and the bad. Always from my viewpoint and I am willing to change it if new data comes in. But I think the data is known now. And one can make up his mind as to what to do.

Thanks again.
Theo
THEO SISMANIDES, EX-SO
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AnonymousID-V42B

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Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:46 am

Welcome theo.

And btw, here's the Anonymous Organizational Chart.

Image

(Sorry, couldn't help myself, it's just so much fun to post this thing.)
"If David Miscaviage declared hell suppressive, I would make at least a favorable reference to the Devil in /b/."
~Anonymous
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The Chief

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Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:20 pm

theo wrote:Scientology has created a big impact around the world. This alone should and does make all those who disagree with any kind of betterment wonder how come.

The reason is simple. Scientology is different and is a thing needed today.


I hate to sound like a busybody, but I think the current situation with Anonymous has vastly overexaggerated just how powerful this organisation is. Scientology even in its most broad estimates is still a tiny, tiny organisation. There are more people playing World of Warcraft than there are Scientologists.

The only reason it had any impact at all is thanks to celebrities going mad and jumping on sofas in support of it. My parents just knew it as that "stupid cult that keeps trying to drag you in for personality tests to sell you books." My sister just called it "comedy religion."

Now I understand that to those of you that have suffered under Scientology and its insane midget of a leader, it must feel like the biggest thing in the world. Sadly, it's not anything like the life changing revelation some people can feel it is. Techs were disproven and out of date by the end of the first copy of Dianetics and the OT story is so ridiculously unlikely we actually use it as an example of what happens when religion tries to take on science it doesn't understand.

The sad truth is, it's neither as big and important as might be commonly believed. The reason we're here is not because Scientology is some massive invasive corporation that stands a good chance of conquering the world. We're here for people like Kendra and her parents who suffered for so many years in a cult that somehow slipped through the framework of society. We're here to put that right. We're here to stop that corporation flouting the rules because they "believe" in something.

And while I can respect someone like Grundy standing up for his viewpoint and his "gun" so to speak, I must reserve the right to point out that so much of Scientology beliefs are so disproven it is almost a case study of psuedo-science.
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theo

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Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:26 pm

AnonymousID-V42B wrote:Welcome theo.

And btw, here's the Anonymous Organizational Chart.

Image

(Sorry, couldn't help myself, it's just so much fun to post this thing.)


Ha,ha,ha. OK that was good.

Now, guys, listen. Has anyone of you gotten any Scientology processing to some effect? Have you tried any process that did work on you?

I bet you haven't. So, how can you talk and say "facts"? Well, I can start critizing Anonymous and by that funny chart, using it not for humour but for fear, start saying it's part of the whole consipacy and all this. But I am not. I have no evidence about it (obviously, it's just an example). So I don't say it. To say Scientology only destroys and it should be destroyed is just an opinion. It's not a fact. There are facts you don't know that make Scientology rather good than bad even in this transvesti form under the current management and Tom Cruise jumping on sofas. Yes, it may have destroyed the lives of some people but believe it or not it has helped the lives of many more. I am saying this even though I am SP declared and that management has ruined a lot of my life. But I don't natter, I act. I am not effect of them, I try to be cause.

I even talk to you to find out which God do you believe in? Do you? Do you feel some higher power around you and around the world? That might sound weird but I am wondering. Is there some supreme power you believe in Anonymous ID - V42B?

Do you believe in spirits?
Ghosts, maybe?
Telepathy?
Anything?
Do you think there is more to matter?
Do you think life animates matter or matter is all?

You see I would like to know more about those things and if there is something spiritual about Anonymous.

Do the Anonymous guys believe in something or are they together just to bring down Scientology?

Thanks
Theo
THEO SISMANIDES, EX-SO
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The Chief

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Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:16 pm

Do me a favour. Go outside and gaze up at night. Just gaze into the sky from the grass and take note of the pinpricks of light.

Just focus on one. For you it's probably not much more than a scraping of a fingernail. Yet it's all a sense of perspective. That pinprick of a fingernail has been burning in a fury of nuclear fire, balanced only by the force of gravity entirely of its own accord for hundreds of millions of years. It is probably a million miles across, a distance so vast that a burp of its nuclear core could incinerate the earth and wipe humanity from its face in an instant. The light you see twinkling in the corner of your eye, that little speck of light you could so easily snuff out with your finger, has been travelling longer than humanity has existed.

That little photon was travelling here when humans were little more than poorly shaven apes, living in caves. It was over a thousand light years away when Rome fell. It saw Hitler from a distance beyond some of our closest neighbours. In terms of time, it is ancient beyond measure. Older than the greatest monuments of our civilisation but it's just a tiny particle that can't decide whether it wants to be a wave or not.

Yet that's just a close neighbour. There was light travelling here before the dinosaurs existed. There was light that shone upon the dinosaurs that saw the beginning of life itself on earth. There was light shining upon the cosmic nebula that birthed the Sun itself. Ancient light that didn't know the judgement of humanity and started its journey before the stars that the Sun calls its neighbours were even born.

The sheer scale of it all and the majesty of it beggars belief. The fact that a hundred million suns twist in a cosmic swirl of gravitational eddys held together only by their presence is staggering. There are millions of them out there. Each revolving in its own unique isolation from the other, each communicating only by those lonely photons that travel the cosmos for eons and their continued existance. They are sent when planets are shards of rubble and arrive upon a lush green earth filled with splendors of our own creation.

The universe is an ancient, beautiful place. It is filled with wonders beyond the comprehension of the greatest minds of our civilisation and it does not judge us. It merely is. Its sheer extent is mindboggling. Our perspective of it is so tiny that our feeble intellects cannot behold the full beautiful simplicity of it all.

Why would you want spirituality when this tiniest of contemplations about a single photon can reveal just a fraction of the splendor of the universe itself. Why direct yourself inward looking for spirits and ghosts and secret powers when the universe itself avails itself to you when you just think about it?

I see no point in shackling myself to anthrocentric spiritualism. There is already enough that we can't see with our own eyes without adding yet more to this existance. This is but the one pinprick in a sky full of lights and it does not mock the wonders that exist in abundance even in your very body. Why detach myself from that? Why make myself stand out from that? Does my mockery and delusion that I am in some way special make even an iota of difference? It doesn't. I am but the tiniest of tiny fragments of the greater world and an understanding, appreciation and acceptance of that is more spiritual than any ghosts or spirits you might name.

It wasn't from who you wanted, but did that answer your question? I want to bring down Scientology because it is a sham of an organisation which abuses its followers and peddles psuedoscience at a vast cost. When we have real, proven sciences to aid and heal, and real existentialism, why should we stand for a mockery of them that abuses the very people it claims to help?
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AnonymousID-V42B

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:44 am

theo wrote:Ha,ha,ha. OK that was good.

Now, guys, listen. Has anyone of you gotten any Scientology processing to some effect? Have you tried any process that did work on you?

I bet you haven't. So, how can you talk and say "facts"? Well, I can start critizing Anonymous and by that funny chart, using it not for humour but for fear, start saying it's part of the whole consipacy and all this. But I am not. I have no evidence about it (obviously, it's just an example). So I don't say it. To say Scientology only destroys and it should be destroyed is just an opinion. It's not a fact. There are facts you don't know that make Scientology rather good than bad even in this transvesti form under the current management and Tom Cruise jumping on sofas. Yes, it may have destroyed the lives of some people but believe it or not it has helped the lives of many more. I am saying this even though I am SP declared and that management has ruined a lot of my life. But I don't natter, I act. I am not effect of them, I try to be cause.

I even talk to you to find out which God do you believe in? Do you? Do you feel some higher power around you and around the world? That might sound weird but I am wondering. Is there some supreme power you believe in Anonymous ID - V42B?

Do you believe in spirits?
Ghosts, maybe?
Telepathy?
Anything?
Do you think there is more to matter?
Do you think life animates matter or matter is all?

You see I would like to know more about those things and if there is something spiritual about Anonymous.

Do the Anonymous guys believe in something or are they together just to bring down Scientology?

Thanks
Theo


Thanks for getting the joke, heh.

Anyways: I can only speak for myself and no other Anonymous, but for me, the problem is neither the tech nor belief or philosophies in Scientology. My criticism is in the behaviors of Fair Gaming, the nature of having an RPF, and the recruitment of children for the Sea Org. If people wish to continue auditing, and other such techniques, and think it works, more power to them then.

First off, at least for me, and from what I view, most of Anonymous isn't out to destroy Scientology. Maybe change it to a heavy degree, but I don't believe it's to be destroyed. Second, one needs not necessarily have to experience a system to be able to point out flaws and weaknesses in a system. For example, one need not live in a dictatorship or communist society to point out the flaws inherent in such a system. One needs not live in Soviet Russia or Communist China to see the shortages, rationing, secret police, and suppression of dissent and think there was a problem. Were it one or two, or even a dozen people saying such problems with Scientology, then it can be noted as the odd one off, the randomness of things not working for everyone, or even ocassional disgruntalment. When it scales up to hundreds, then there's stronger evidance that there indeed is something rotten in the system.

As for my belief, while I do not believe it has no bearing in this, I take a more agnostic tack, in that there is either no god/goddess/gods/godesses/flying spaghetti monster, a hands off god/goddess/gods/godesses/flying spaghetti monster, or a very abstract form of god/goddess/gods/godesses/flying spaghetti monster (aka: God is a mathmatical equation). No spirits. No ghosts. No telepathy or other psychic phenomenom. Matter can be reduced to more basic components, but in the end, they are still collections of basic building blocks. We are merely animated matter, but that is the wonder of it all.

Anonymous... cannot really be spoken for by anyone. Everyone's in it for their own reasons and why they protest. Whether it's Fair Game, or RPF, or Sea Org, or Censoring, or whatever, it's a motly collection. There's a broad range of people in it, from Atheist, to Christians, to Jews, to Buddhists, Muslims, and even some Free Zoners. The best I could say is that Anonymous sees there's a problem in the CoS, and that something should be done about it.
"If David Miscaviage declared hell suppressive, I would make at least a favorable reference to the Devil in /b/."
~Anonymous
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theo

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:35 am

AnonymousID-V42B wrote:
theo wrote:[size=7]Ha,ha,ha. OK that was good.

Thanks for getting the joke, heh.

Anyways: I can only speak for myself and no other Anonymous, but for me, the problem is neither the tech nor belief or philosophies in Scientology. My criticism is in the behaviors of Fair Gaming, the nature of having an RPF, and the recruitment of children for the Sea Org. If people wish to continue auditing, and other such techniques, and think it works, more power to them then.

First off, at least for me, and from what I view, most of Anonymous isn't out to destroy Scientology. Maybe change it to a heavy degree, but I don't believe it's to be destroyed. Second, one needs not necessarily have to experience a system to be able to point out flaws and weaknesses in a system. For example, one need not live in a dictatorship or communist society to point out the flaws inherent in such a system. One needs not live in Soviet Russia or Communist China to see the shortages, rationing, secret police, and suppression of dissent and think there was a problem. Were it one or two, or even a dozen people saying such problems with Scientology, then it can be noted as the odd one off, the randomness of things not working for everyone, or even ocassional disgruntalment. When it scales up to hundreds, then there's stronger evidance that there indeed is something rotten in the system.

As for my belief, while I do not believe it has no bearing in this, I take a more agnostic tack, in that there is either no god/goddess/gods/godesses/flying spaghetti monster, a hands off god/goddess/gods/godesses/flying spaghetti monster, or a very abstract form of god/goddess/gods/godesses/flying spaghetti monster (aka: God is a mathmatical equation). No spirits. No ghosts. No telepathy or other psychic phenomenom. Matter can be reduced to more basic components, but in the end, they are still collections of basic building blocks. We are merely animated matter, but that is the wonder of it all.

Anonymous... cannot really be spoken for by anyone. Everyone's in it for their own reasons and why they protest. Whether it's Fair Game, or RPF, or Sea Org, or Censoring, or whatever, it's a motly collection. There's a broad range of people in it, from Atheist, to Christians, to Jews, to Buddhists, Muslims, and even some Free Zoners. The best I could say is that Anonymous sees there's a problem in the CoS, and that something should be done about it.


Well, OK. Now we are able to talk better and better. Though I disagree with you that we are animated matter, I respect your viewpoint and I understand it.

I will ask you a question though.

Think of a dog. Have the picture of a dog. Any dog, one you might know or an imaginable one.

Who sees that picture?

Let me know on this one.

As to the rest thank you for informing me about Anonymous and their intentions and the people that are in it. Though we cannot be Synonymous (joke) I am thinking to come to Athens and protest as a Freezoner if there is going to be some people there in the next worldwide protest. I am not going to contact any Anonymous guys but if there is going to be a demonstration in Athens (which I think there was none here) I can think of going as a Freezoner since you are telling me this.

I am saying it again. I am amazed by the organizing of all those protests all around the world. It definitely has an impact and I proposed to Freezoners to do something similar.

It is good that you say that Anonymous want to change Scientology to a big degree. That's better for me. We have to be able to agree on some things otherwise there can be no communication. If one has no reality with another (reality = agreement) then there can be little or no communication between the two.

I am also fascinated by the fact that you point out that we are matter. It's interesting. I'll tell you why. There is many people who have had a near death experience. My nephew who is not a spiritualist (if I can use this term) at all, some years ago had the following experience: while in bed, for no reason, he went out of his body (sorry I cannot describe it in another way) and saw his body lying on the bed. Nothing else happened like this to him but he definitely had this experience when he was young and he is not I am repeating a zealot of spiritualism and such stuff.

Many people have had similar experiences. So, who was looking at his body from a distance from above? There are many people who died and "returned", see lights, tunnels etc. I don't need to believe in such stories since I have had my own experiences through auditing and certainly I know who I am and what I am made of. The body is getting older (this one I have is now 47 years old) but me I am still young enough to be quite unserious about life and never compromise with the system. It's an injust system after all. This is why I became a Scientologist. Not to see Tom Cruise jumping on sofas and explaining Scientology to the world for me. He cannot do that no matter how famous or infamous he becomes. My philosophy is my personal matter. Man has enough troubles. Ruthless rulers who wage wars around the globe, make slaves of people and rule the world. Gas prices going up and up and up while Iraq has been invaded and the gas there now belongs to "Democracy". This is a cause to protest to. This is an organization to bring down, my friend.

I think young people through the Internet are building networks that create a movement around the world from where new movements will spring up. See the real causes of the problems of the world and act against them. As to Scientology it was never meant to be run by the American Government. Yes, the Sea Org is tough and was tough, people were thrown into the sea by Hubbard but life is like that and when your cause and goal is to get man out of the mud he thinks conceived him you have to act sometimes in a battle in a brutal way to save the rest. It's non optimum but nobody is perfect.

I am glad we can talk. I am glad we can exchange ideas and understand a little better things. The problem in the world is not just Scientology in its current management. I will be glad to see Miscavige pay for his crimes against Scientologists. The IRS has taken over the copyrights of Scientology!!! Those guys are creating a robot society. So if we are free people we should be able to use some communication and understanding and we should start seeing where we are wrong maybe and see if there is something worth learning in all this. Scientology is a tool. In the hands of madmen it becomes a lethal weapon. That's what you are fighting. Madmen and men of power. It's going to be the religion of the 21st century and the religion of Globalization. One world one government and many slaves. Matrix is nothing compared to the true story of what is happening here on Earth, which by the way is a prison planet. You may not believe this (and it's true that's higher up to understand) but I will tell you that IMPLANTING (hitting a being with heavy electronics reducing his awareness and power) is heavily used in this sector of the Universe. A being cannot be dead by bullets. The only way you can "kill" a spiritual being is by reducing his awareness. Only heavy electronics and nuclear power can do that. Some high frequency wavelengths that approximate the 0 or Infinite Wavelength of a spiritual being. After they have used heavy electronics it's easy. They just find some things that restimulate that incident and use those which are much lesser in power and thus considered innocent. But they are restimulants and the being is being controlled after that very easily and can be manipulated. They don't need to use too much force any more. Scientology auditing can undo such heavy electronics incidents and thus free a being from inexplicable compulsions and so it is being attacked and taken over by the american government.
THEO SISMANIDES, EX-SO
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theo

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:54 am

The Chief wrote:Do me a favour. Go outside and gaze up at night. Just gaze into the sky from the grass and take note of the pinpricks of light.

Just focus on one. For you it's probably not much more than a scraping of a fingernail. Yet it's all a sense of perspective. That pinprick of a fingernail has been burning in a fury of nuclear fire, balanced only by the force of gravity entirely of its own accord for hundreds of millions of years. It is probably a million miles across, a distance so vast that a burp of its nuclear core could incinerate the earth and wipe humanity from its face in an instant. The light you see twinkling in the corner of your eye, that little speck of light you could so easily snuff out with your finger, has been travelling longer than humanity has existed.

That little photon was travelling here when humans were little more than poorly shaven apes, living in caves. It was over a thousand light years away when Rome fell. It saw Hitler from a distance beyond some of our closest neighbours. In terms of time, it is ancient beyond measure. Older than the greatest monuments of our civilisation but it's just a tiny particle that can't decide whether it wants to be a wave or not.

Yet that's just a close neighbour. There was light travelling here before the dinosaurs existed. There was light that shone upon the dinosaurs that saw the beginning of life itself on earth. There was light shining upon the cosmic nebula that birthed the Sun itself. Ancient light that didn't know the judgement of humanity and started its journey before the stars that the Sun calls its neighbours were even born.

The sheer scale of it all and the majesty of it beggars belief. The fact that a hundred million suns twist in a cosmic swirl of gravitational eddys held together only by their presence is staggering. There are millions of them out there. Each revolving in its own unique isolation from the other, each communicating only by those lonely photons that travel the cosmos for eons and their continued existance. They are sent when planets are shards of rubble and arrive upon a lush green earth filled with splendors of our own creation.

The universe is an ancient, beautiful place. It is filled with wonders beyond the comprehension of the greatest minds of our civilisation and it does not judge us. It merely is. Its sheer extent is mindboggling. Our perspective of it is so tiny that our feeble intellects cannot behold the full beautiful simplicity of it all.

Why would you want spirituality when this tiniest of contemplations about a single photon can reveal just a fraction of the splendor of the universe itself. Why direct yourself inward looking for spirits and ghosts and secret powers when the universe itself avails itself to you when you just think about it?

I see no point in shackling myself to anthrocentric spiritualism. There is already enough that we can't see with our own eyes without adding yet more to this existance. This is but the one pinprick in a sky full of lights and it does not mock the wonders that exist in abundance even in your very body. Why detach myself from that? Why make myself stand out from that? Does my mockery and delusion that I am in some way special make even an iota of difference? It doesn't. I am but the tiniest of tiny fragments of the greater world and an understanding, appreciation and acceptance of that is more spiritual than any ghosts or spirits you might name.

It wasn't from who you wanted, but did that answer your question? I want to bring down Scientology because it is a sham of an organisation which abuses its followers and peddles psuedoscience at a vast cost. When we have real, proven sciences to aid and heal, and real existentialism, why should we stand for a mockery of them that abuses the very people it claims to help?


Hi Clear and thanks.

I must admit, that was a beautiful description of the physical universe. Really beautiful. You know we are not smaller or bigger to it, there is no in arguing about these things. But we are definitely part of it. Now, how much responsible we are (and I am not talking about our minds or bodies) I am talking about YOU and ME, for this Universe and its creation is still a question that is there. Yes, the light was there for sure for all this to happen. I could not describe it better and I do not want to sound stupid by asking questions like a cynical, critical person. That's not me. All I am wondering about, is how much of this creation I am responsible for. Because you know that even here as our little Earth dies day by day because of pollution etc. etc. by homo sapiens, it hurts us all inside and outside. So, we do have something to do with this.

On Scientology try to see a little bit closer. I read your writing. You have love and awe for the Universe and the Cosmos. Scientology might be not exactly what you think. Look at it a bit closer. I open to questions. The fact that it has been taken over is not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact and I am an insider and know what I am talking about. But that is not Scientology. The discipline on the higher levels is needed though some times unpallatable for many. But even in your group you need some discipline and you need people to be there holding banners and appear on a protest otherwise it's treasonous on their part. So where there are groups there must be discipline. But Scientology is there as knowledge. Look at it. I know you don't belive in any other life form beyond matter. I don't take offense if you consider me Matter now that I am writing to you, though you cannot see. I don't blame me if you think I am my fingers typing up this message and that soft ball in my cranium gives all the ideas laid out here. I don't think your beautiful descripion of the physical universe and its creation has any close connection to that soft ball inside your cranium. After all that's ugly, permit me to say and your writing was beautiful. Sorry, my observation. Sorry the explanation for me is there is an Inside Clear who produces those thoughts and feelings of whatever kind and who decides to sit down and communicate with this guy called Theo from Greece who thinks he is smart and is going to tell us what we believe in. So, that Inner Clear gets to write and HE decides whether he is going to do it or not. Nobody else. He is a sefl determined being. It's not the brain who gives the command or has any willingness. It's this peculiar beast who decides to talk to an Ex-SO who sounds kind of whatever and now he says I am going to write to him and tell him a few things about the Universe because obviously this guy thinks there are this and thats.

So, that's ME communicating to YOU and I am happy we can communicate. Scientology is not to be destroyed. There is good in it. The fact that it was taken over is a sad story. That's all and thanks.
THEO SISMANIDES, EX-SO
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The Chief

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:31 pm

theo wrote:Hi Clear and thanks.


I like you. You defend your spiritualism on an intellectual level and explain how you think. I can appreciate that, if not understand it.

I must admit, that was a beautiful description of the physical universe. Really beautiful. You know we are not smaller or bigger to it, there is no in arguing about these things. But we are definitely part of it. Now, how much responsible we are (and I am not talking about our minds or bodies) I am talking about YOU and ME, for this Universe and its creation is still a question that is there. Yes, the light was there for sure for all this to happen. I could not describe it better and I do not want to sound stupid by asking questions like a cynical, critical person. That's not me. All I am wondering about, is how much of this creation I am responsible for. Because you know that even here as our little Earth dies day by day because of pollution etc. etc. by homo sapiens, it hurts us all inside and outside. So, we do have something to do with this.


Well, what I meant to say is that as a civilization and as intelligent beings capable of understanding the world around us, our actual presence is pretty much miniscule. When people mention the end of the world in terms of global warming, they really don't mean the end of the Earth itself. The Earth periodically waxes and wanes through cycles whereupon it becomes more or less hospitable to life. The amount of damage we have done to the Earth so far is miniscule compared to some of the cataclysms visited upon it in the past. By comparison to ourselves, Earth itself is an extremely durable thing. It survived planetary scale impacts in the thirty gigaton range. It survived solar events that generated more energy than our entire civilization will for the next thousand years.

What people are afraid of is the destruction of towns and cities and the driving of homo sapiens back into the existance we knew before the emergence of technology. There were periods where the polar ice caps did not exist at all. Given time, Earth will recover from our presence, but it will be long after we have departed.

The truth is we overstate our importance to this pale blue dot. We are but a passing fad upon its surface, a tiny mammalian species that escaped from the food chain. That might make us feel very small, but ultimately it doesn't. We're as important as anything else, even the Earth itself. Just not more, and not less.

On Scientology try to see a little bit closer. I read your writing. You have love and awe for the Universe and the Cosmos. Scientology might be not exactly what you think. Look at it a bit closer. I open to questions. The fact that it has been taken over is not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact and I am an insider and know what I am talking about. But that is not Scientology.


I have awe and love for a universe that has nothing for me despite itself. I don't expect it to. That's the difference between myself and a theist. I have enough care and devotion and attention for myself and all that is around me to not need it from another source. When I do something for a fellow human being it's out of my care for them, not out of a need to uphold standards of morality.

When I don't, it's because I didn't feel it important enough to me. That makes me both honest and selfish, I know. :) I never claimed to be an athiest saint.

The discipline on the higher levels is needed though some times unpallatable for many. But even in your group you need some discipline and you need people to be there holding banners and appear on a protest otherwise it's treasonous on their part. So where there are groups there must be discipline. But Scientology is there as knowledge.


The problem is I don't see that knowledge. I am studying towards a Ph.D in physics and the knowledge I gather from that pursuit is intrusively and even aggressively checked for flaws. People base their entire careers upon single, miniscule assumptions about our world and write hundreds of pages and dedicate years of their lives to that discovery. Science as a subject is aggressively peer reviewed to the point of obsessiveness and every new discovery is caught upon by skeptic after skeptic after skeptic. Even concepts such as relativity and even Newton's basic mechanics were torn into, concepts that we know well and can even prove basically today.

Therein lies the problem. It is fine to believe something, even healthy in some cases. Humans are by nature an inquisitive species and even an excitable one. It's nice to think that there is always that next discovery or that there's something even slightly spooky about the world. However none of these beliefs, no matter how heartfelt they may be hold up to external evidence.

Look at it. I know you don't belive in any other life form beyond matter. I don't take offense if you consider me Matter now that I am writing to you, though you cannot see. I don't blame me if you think I am my fingers typing up this message and that soft ball in my cranium gives all the ideas laid out here.


I see what you're saying to an extent. I'm going to leave the rest of what you've said because what you're saying is personal beliefs and I am not going to say anything in that regard. My own are vastly different and no good would come of a clash from them. I merely ask you to consider this.

I saw my cousin the other day, and she brought her two year old son with her. Lovely lad. Inquisitive and playful and communicative and everything he wanted to be. He would wander around playing with things and he almost cried when a porcelain duck fell over.

On the other side of the room was my little 13 year old yorkshire terrier. He is clearly the inferior mentally of the two, and yet what did he do? He wandered around, being inquisitive and playful and communicative and everything he wanted to be. He even got a little nervous when the 2 year old fell over.

Spiritually they were both happy, and curious, and they both wanted to know each other. They communicated. Yet in so many theisms and spiritualities, only one of them is important. It's not my dog.

I see human "soul" behaviour in my dog every day. He loves his family. He gets excited when we come home. He has every emotion we have from happiness to sadness to despair. He comforts us when we're ill, he comes to us when he is. He gets afraid, he gets elated. He is, as a spiritual being, completely and utterly human. As far as I can tell, the only thing he has different from me is a different body and a different level of intellectualism.

Now, what you might say here is "proof of past lives." However I think differently. My dog is no more intelligent than any other dog. He's as smart and as loving and as caring and as selfish as any other animal. Animals both lower and higher than him show the same behaviour. You can scale this behaviour not with "soul" but intelligence. The more intelligent a creature, the more its behaviour resonates with our own.

Where do you identify a soul? Where is its ending point? Is it just some other dimension where singularities prod through into our three dimensional universe? Does it gift us with intelligence? Is that the spark of life? If so, why doesn't it manifest in other creatures? Why can't my dog mentally match me? Why does he get confused by the simplest of tasks? Why does every single atom in the entire universe not have this singularity of life persence within it? How far down the line do you have to go before you say "Okay, no more soul here?" Is it sub human? Is it post human? Is it mammalian? Did dinosaurs have souls? Do plants? Do algae? Do QUARKS??

Or perhaps what we identify as the soul is simply the manifestation of a lack of understanding (maintained to this day) of how we work as creatures and as a species. When "red stuff staying in" was the complexity of human biology. Where we didn't understand brain chemistry or function. There are still some mysteries that must be solved about the human body and out but they can be solved through mundane, physical means.
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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:23 pm

AGREEMENT

Thanks for your response Theo. I do think I mainly agree with you and Grundy. I have no doubt that it is DM and people robotically following his orders that are the destructive, suppressive ones against Scientology.

It just upsets me that I know other Scientologists observe this in greater or lesser degrees, and do nothing about it because they can still go on course and get a good session, or learn a great piece of tech from course.

From what I understand, DM HAS altered tech, and a lot of it. I have seen policies being applied and interpreted in ways I feel is absolutely not LRH's intentions.

What I was trying to say with the whole "gun" example, is that Scientology is as good as it is applied. If someone takes Scientology and applies it destructively, that Scientology right there is not good. It's really straight out of KSW. If we don't do something about DM, soon enough, we won't be able to just walk into an org and get good standard tech. That's all I'm saying. The fact that it's "just DM and the goverment" like you said, is not enough to ignore the misapplications, the off-policy, the destructive use of the tech.

I don't think I explained myself well before, but do you get what I'm trying to say now?
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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:34 pm

I actually kinda got that the first time, but because it could be interpreted another way, I made my post.

We're good. :rockon:
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