mail and phone calls? strange coincidence

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Anonymous9104

OT8 Class 12

Posts: 418

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:07 pm

Post Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:14 am

* Deleted by admin because this is a personal attack and violates board rules.
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Kristal

EPFer

Posts: 46

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:08 am

Location: canada

Post Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:09 am

Well DRE, I respect what you are saying. I consider myself a christian but I also realize that I am the faith that I am because of my ancestry. If I was born in Iraq, I would be Muslim. I have an honours degree in the history of religion and I try to respect all faiths and beliefs. I teach grade 8 and have many students in my class from varying cultures. I agree with you that scientologists are not inherantely bad people and I am sure that people join the COS because they want to help. BUT...the organization seems to have the ability to convince its members that everything else in life should be sacrificed for the sake of COS. ALSO...The amount of money for services is ridiculous. IF COS really wants to help people...do it for free or lower the fees. I have a student on meds, ritalin, and he is definately adhd (or has symptoms of). When he is not on meds, he is bouncing off lockers as he runs down the halls. Someone from the local org called me once (early on in my marriage) and we talked about adhd, ritalin, and such, and he told me that COS could help this kid so that he would never have to take ritalin again. (Now, I do agree that meds are overprescribed to kids but on to my point). When I asked him if COS would help this child for free seeing as he is from a single parent home, he made some lame excuse that everything costs money, etc. That seems wrong to me. My husband told me that he was never paid as an auditor because the org here is small, BUT those that got the auditing had to pay...so where did the money go?
I know that the average member of COS is there because they feel that they are doing the right thing, but at what cost?
I have also studied psychology and, I could be wrong here, but is that not something that is frowned on by COS? WHY? It is these kinds of things that I am against. The organization just seems so controlling of every aspect of ones life. And don't get me started on the neglect of those poor kids....
I quit the church that I grew up in because it was very fundamentalist and I didn't agree with many of its doctrines. I told the pastor that I was leaving and he wished me luck. That was it! He respected my decision. To me, that is the norm, not this incessant "we are not going to accept that you are leaving" that my husband is getting. In my opinion, the COS takes away ones free choice and negates the idea we are intelligent beings able to make our own decisions.
This is from an outsider looking in so I obviously have a biased perspective. My husband would agree with you that there are good things about COS and I am sure that there are. Just like communism, I think that scientology started off as a good thing, but it was an idea that couldn't work and thus, became corrupt.
We had a windchill of MINUS 50 the other day in the Great White North.(which is the same in celcius and imperial) It made me realize that hell is not hot, hell is cold and we are living in it! I moved to Texas for a few years during my marriage to my first husband. Its on days like these that I miss the lonestar state.
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DRE

OTIII

Posts: 247

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:20 pm

Post Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:17 am

Wow, Kristal, we have much in common. I personally am a graduate of Monsignor Kelly Catholic High School in Beaumont, a place where religious views like yours are nurtured and people are encouraged by devout Catholics to think as they will. I consider these Catholics true Christians, as opposed to the fundamentalist idiots who call themselves Christians and like to flaunt the idea that God is prejudiced and intolerant in any way. I once got one of those latter people to vacate his clownish street preaching from the University of Texas West Mall Rally Area (with a petition that had over 300 individual signatures!). My mother was made to feel unwelcome by a Catholic church after her divorce and years later a different Catholic friar welcomed her back with the phrase "if there's room in the Lord's stable for stupid donkeys and odd-looking camels, there's room in there for you." Mom's a good person, and so is the friar. So are my teachers at Kelly and other Christians I know. They make me tolerant of Christianity despite all the doubts about it other people give me (people such as the UT street preacher who railed against living with a free mind). I look at Scientology through the same lens. Experience has justified my view up unto this point.

There are people in Scientology with good intentions and decent character. However, the way they are going about things is causing problems, as you have said. Money, issues over commitment, and other stuff. IMHO, this is in part because Scientology is young as a religion and they're still finding the proper way to be. They haven't learned to live in the real world and that sometimes people's ideas of devotion and such can change, and that people can disagree for good reason. They also feel threatened and this is not good. Evolution does not work very well in threatened environments. This includes evolution of ideas.

I apologize for my rambling habit. I sometimes feel I need to justify my own views to myself just to keep them. My home city is very liberal and so was my upbringing. Even with that, though, I was never motivated to forget intolerance and its consequences. I once treated Scientology with the same level of outright suspicion and disdain most critics show, although I never approached the extremes to which some have gone. Then I learned some people I wanted to call friends were Scientologists and decided I better reconcile my opinions, pull the blinders off my eyes. It's a difficult road, one I am still heading down. I am not discounting the possibility it will lead me astray and mess up my life. At the same time, if it results in a better environment than prejudicial intolerance, is that not a good thing?

I am human. So are you. So are Scientologists. We all need to reform and learn from our mistakes, some more than others. I wonder how long your husband has been separated from his ex-wife. The way I remember my own parents' divorce, exgaggeration of the others' faults and shunning lack of communication was the norm for both of them as they remained at odds. They calmed down and treated each other better once the custody battle was over, even though they still aren't friends today. They both had to accept that I and my sister were their children and they wanted to love us. They did not want us to be indisposed towards them. Time and the recognition that we did not have to live with them forever helped my parents reach this point. Maybe the same process is at work with you? Then again, religion was not significantly involved in my mom's divorce. Your situation is different. I really don't know. I wish you good luck figuring things out. I can give advice, but that's really all I can do.

I imagine your husband as a liberal Scientologist who has decided he likes things about his faith but doesn't really need it as a whole trying to hold on to self-determination. His ex is overly devout and unsettled by his stance. You're the liberal thinker in love with your man and caught in the middle of his problems. It's a soap opera. Am I far from the mark?

I'm new to this site too, so I'm still learning its ways. I may leave if things get too uneasy. I will be glad to have aided you, though, while I was here.

-50 windchill? Dang, that's cold. I spent some years in New Mexico as a child and it snowed, but it was never that frosty. Maybe I should reconsider coming to Canada. :P Nah, I'll just bundle up first.
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Kristal

EPFer

Posts: 46

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:08 am

Location: canada

Post Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:26 am

GO Longhorns! I still go to Texas every year. My oldest son lives with his father just outside of Dallas. We lived in New Braunfels and I still have friends in SanAntonio so I make sure to spend a week there as well. The Czech Stop on I35 on the way to SA has the best food!
You hit the nail on the head regarding my husband. He is very liberal in his beliefs....his ex is very staunch in hers. They have been divorced for 7 years and he is the one who left the marriage. For some reason, the COS made him pay her something like $11,000 for leaving (and this was on top of the divorce settlement). That in itself would have turned me right off the CoS. Again, its the controlling of every aspect of ones life. I often wonder why she hasn't labeled me a SP but I think it is because she does not want to take full responsibility of raising the girls. This thought has come to me after i read the posts regarding disconnection and such.
And yes, I feel like this is a soap opera and I am stuck in it. So many things I don't understand. I am not parent of the year, but I try the best that I can. (I have 4 boys) In Autumn, we spend 4 nights a week at football and I manage one of the football teams. I take them to their volleyball games during the winter, and so on. When the girls are at their moms house, they are often alone and will call us on her days to take them places because she is busy at the church. I don't mind at all, but I don't understand.
I work with a lot of kids who come from dysfunctional families and I feel as if the problems that I see at work are carried on when I get home. I want to help the girls, but I want to be respectful as well.
I guess that the constant phone calls are just a reminder to me as to how messed up things are. There was one girl that used to call from somewhere in LA and she would always ask to speak to me. I challenged her quite a bit and reversed her questions so, needless to say, she does not ask to speak to me anymore.
I don't mind your ramblings at all DRE. As you may have noticed, I tend to ramble as well, especially when I am trying to make a point. Because of a previous comment in another forum from someone thinking that I am not telling the truth, I am trying to be as clear and concise as possible. Hard to do without writing a lengthy post. Not that it matters whether anyone believes me or not, but I have found this site helpful in making me cognizant of what others have gone through.
So you were not raised in the CoS DRE? For some reason, I thought that you were.
Side note; When I moved to Texas, i was asked why there was a cord sticking out of the middle of the front hood of my car. When I told people that we had to plug in an engine blockheater so that the oil wouldn't freeze, no one believed me.
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DRE

OTIII

Posts: 247

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:20 pm

Post Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:53 am

No, I was not raised in the CoS. I was born to a patent attorney father and accountant mother who divorced when I was three. Mom then went on to found her own medical counseling business and today she teaches ESL. She married an Italian diplomat in 1986 and we lived on three continents with him. I spent much of my youth in Taipei, Taiwan and then moved back to America to finish high school and college. Today I am 30 and work in technical flash memory manufacturing. My family's Christian, but liberal on views.

I became aware of Scientology when I moved to Austin. You can check the Intros forum on this site for the whole story, but basically I saw the Org on the UT campus drag and thought at first they were a small weird church. I had no interest in them. Then I became aware of Operation Clambake's stance towards them ("Scientology is an evil cult") and became very worried. I treated them with fear and suspicion for years. Then in 2006 I started writing fanfiction about celebrities and learned one of my intended characters was a Scientologist. I wanted to like her and I couldn't do that if I saw her religion in completely negative terms. I was forced to learn about Scientology from both sides and reform my thoughts. Changing my mind was not an easy thing, and learning I had real friends who were in the CoS but never told me only helped somewhat. These people have been tolerant and open towards me. We have disagreed, but it never gets to the point of harassment and unrelenting anger. At least it hasn't yet. This is in contrast to the picture some people like to paint.

One of my friends suggested I join the CoS for research purposes, so that I might become more tolerant of it. I might find aid for my own spiritual concerns too. I followed their wishes in December 2006. 9 and a half weeks later, I stopped going. I knew Scientology was not for me. Too much repetitive and contradictory scripture, too high cost in money, too many people who didn't want to respect my viewpoint, the list goes on. I can get into specifics if you want.

I left on March 12th, 2007 during an L Ron Hubbard birthday celebration. I will always remember it. I heard him saying the faith would "take off like a rocket" on TV multiple times and meanwhile people were leaving the service and shaking their heads. It didn't take me long to join them. A very enlightening experience. I walked away from Scientology that day and I honestly have little desire to go back. I still have tolerance for the religion, value the good I found in it, and call some Scientologists friends. I might even attend church with them again one day, under the right circumstances (it would have to be a free self-fulfilling environment, to make an understatement). I'm more content with Christianity as my primary faith, though. Always have been. And btw, I'm the freethinking type of Christian who rarely sees the need to attend church and finds God more in living my daily life.

7 years? Wow. And how long have you been married to him? It seems like a developing situation is why I ask. The $11,000 to which you refer is called a "Freeloader's Bill". Scientologists who join the most elite ranks of the church staff get free auditing, but then are retroactively charged for it if they leave staff. I too am disgusted by the practice of such bills and they are one of many things I hope the CoS de-institutes one of these days. If people want to run such bills up and pay them, though, it is their decision. I think they do more harm than good and am glad I never incurred one. Defaulting on a $50k mortgage and losing my house was bad enough. I learned my lesson. :lol:

Anyway, it's late here so I gotta retire to bed now. I will come back tomorrow and talk more with you, though. If you want to read my posting history and learn more about the issues that brought me here, feel free.

It's hard to keep an open mind about Scientology on occasion. The things people have gone through, the stuff they say, the extremes of emotion to which they go. I can't help but sympathize. I don't want to become intolerant, though. Here is a site which helped me reach this stance: bernie.cncfamily.com
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Kristal

EPFer

Posts: 46

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:08 am

Location: canada

Post Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:48 am

DRE
I checked out the website that you posted and also read your previous posts. I agree with you on being tolerant of Scientologists as individuals but I do firmly believe that Scientology is a cult, and a dangerous one at that. It manifests all of the characteristics of a cult (which I will not go though but upon which we would all agree on). So, I guess the question is: Should we be tolerant of cults?
I understand your view on cult awareness groups, but if Scientology can spread their propaganda than those opposed to CoS should be allowed to as well. I think that anti-scientology sites are good in that those curious about CoS are able to get a different perspective. Hopefully, that will make them think twice about joining.
As an offside, Canada does not recognize the CoS as a religion, thus the CoS does not get tax breaks, tax write-offs, etc. They are regarded as a business. The Canadian Gov't is not tolerant of the CoS, and for that, I am glad. I think that's one of the contributing factors of why, in our city of 650,000 people, there is only one small org of about 40 members.
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DRE

OTIII

Posts: 247

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:20 pm

Post Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:19 am

I think if a cult can grow and evolve into a religion, one should tolerate it. Of course, that takes a really long time. One could argue that many Christian and Islamic sects act like cults today, even though their teachings are widespread and millennia old.

I suppose a better answer is that if someone can take cult-like beliefs and live them in a way that harmonizes with the rest of humanity and benefits people as opposed to hurting them, one should be allowed the right to their beliefs. I regret that the more vocal and publically familiar Scientologists do not sponsor such an ideal. It seems the ones who do are barely acknowledged much of the time. I blame that on their "I am perfect" elitist attitude and the culture both they and their detractors have of putting down everyone with whom they can find fault.

I agree with you about the merits of anti-CoS sites.
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Anonymous9104

OT8 Class 12

Posts: 418

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:07 pm

Post Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:35 pm

Kristal,

by the by, did you know that Co$ sued the Cult Awareness Network, then bought it after they bankrupt it? So if you call them for help, be forewarned...
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Kristal

EPFer

Posts: 46

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:08 am

Location: canada

Post Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:03 am

DRE
I think the difference btw. the Christian church of old and the CoS of today is that in Christianity, there were many different groups such as monastics, gnostics, judaism, and so on. Also, though they were following the teachings of Christ, there were many interpretations as to what that might be (as there is today). Also, the bible was written by various authors. Basically, there was divergence as the religion grew which allowed for differences of opinion.
In CoS, it is one author, one perspective, and no divergence. Basically, all or nothing. So though early Christianity could have been considered a cult, it actually didn't fit the def'n of a cult whereas Scientology does. Christian religions which focus on the beliefs of one person could also be considered a cult...agreed. I think that MODERATE Christianity and Islam have validity in that both have deep roots in Judaism. Scientology has roots in....um....hm....um.....hm. Of course there are extremists in any religion, yet what we consider the extreme in other religions seems to be the norm in Scientology.
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gogogadget

Clear

Posts: 116

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:13 pm

Post Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:05 am

DRE -- A cult by definition doesn't have to be religious at all. There are political cults, psychology/self-improvement cults, racial cults. You can have a cult about anything -- the content is not what defines a cult. I think a definition that could work for this particular site is a cult is a group that forms around a person who claims he or she has a special mission or knowledge, which will be shared with those who turn over most of their decision making to that self-appointed leader.
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DRE

OTIII

Posts: 247

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:20 pm

Post Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:18 am

Extremism is not the norm for Scientologists. Just for the more noticeable bad ones. The rest are basically good people who also happen to be Scientologists and because of the bad ones' deeds get tarred with the same brush. At least this is my observation. How many Scientologists, public or staff, are really personally involved in the Fair Game measures and other scandals? How many others are raising their eyebrows when they hear about them and saying "that's not what Scientology is for me"? It's easy to stereotype all people of a religion when the religion is small, but that doesn't necessarily make it right. I hope one day the CoS leadership will have a higher tolerance of dissent so we can stop thinking extremism is the norm for the rest.
Last edited by DRE on Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kristal

EPFer

Posts: 46

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:08 am

Location: canada

Post Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:18 am

Are you kidding me???!! The CoS OWNS the Cult Awareness Network???!!! How hypocritical!! That is insane! I had no idea. I haven't really checked out that website but I am on my way there now! (and no, I don't think that I will be going to them for help!) The CoS has its hands in much more that I realized.

I absolutely agree with you Gogogadet. Excellent clarification and very well said.
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DRE

OTIII

Posts: 247

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:20 pm

Post Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:21 am

The book on how they took over the CAN and why is called "Agents of Discord." There's a big discussion about it on Bernie's site. I'm surprised you didn't know. It's not too hard to imagine why a religion seeking to prove it was not a cult would get its own anti-cult group. Not that the new CAN is typical of groups that use such a term to describe themselves.
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Kristal

EPFer

Posts: 46

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:08 am

Location: canada

Post Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:23 am

No, I didn't know, but I certainly find it intriguing and yes, it does make sense.
I don't think that it is just a few people that make the CoS look like an extremist cult....It's the CoS itself. (Please understand that I am not being argumentative, but arguing a point). LRH and his policies just seem so controlling and it controls every aspect of ones life. The dozens of books that my husband has from the CoS...ALL written by Hubbard (There is even one on ART! So when did he become an expert on Art??) gives a very one dimensional view and LRH's ideals are faithfully followed. His word does, in fact, seem to be taken as gospel by many. That in itself makes this a cult. There is no room for divergence.

Thus far, all that I have seen in relation to the CoS is extremism, and then some. I haven't even told the whole story of what I have witnessed.
As far as the scandals and Fair Game policy...the fact that LRH even wrote that in the first place is telling as to his moral character (or lack thereof), so why follow an organization that adheres to his other tenets? Maybe that is a question that you should ask those scientologists that would raise a eyebrow at such behaviour. After all, that behaviour came directly from the man whose ideals they are following. Does this make any sense??
Though I appreciate your argument, I believe that in Scientology....the bad far outweighs the good.
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DRE

OTIII

Posts: 247

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:20 pm

Post Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:46 am

Your argument makes perfect sense. Thank you.
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Kristal

EPFer

Posts: 46

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:08 am

Location: canada

Post Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:25 am

Thank you DRE. I think that both of our arguments make sense. Its just all a matter of perspective.
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Kristal

EPFer

Posts: 46

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:08 am

Location: canada

Post Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:23 pm

I just finished checking out the Cult Awareness Network. I have never visited that site before. Wow...the pro-scientology is SO blatant. What a lame cover.
Thanks for filling me in Gogogadget!
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Anonymous9104

OT8 Class 12

Posts: 418

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:07 pm

Post Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:59 pm

You're surprised Kristal didn't know something? I see people TIRELESSLY educate and explain things to you constantly Dre... in fact, it's almost all people seem to do in response to you. Now, that's not offensive, but from what I can discern, a mere fact. We are not allowed to disparage each other, I am only making a valid point that you are surprised Kristal didn't know something, when in fact, it seems you don't know a lot.
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Music_Mp3_douffitoeddiz

Post Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:31 am

I can’t understand how to add your site in my rss reader

Hello to all :) I can’t understand how to add your site in my rss reader. Help me, please
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Grundy

User avatar

Sticky Master

Posts: 1067

Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:41 am

Post Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:04 am

Have to ask someone else .. I don't know if its compatible with that.
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