Psychs

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AthlAnon 88

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:13 am

Psychs

I'm Anon. So obviously I still have very, very serious issues against CoS. Otherwise I wouldn't be putting my butt on the line to speak out against it. And I will continue to fight it until I'm no longer able to. Make no mistake about that.

However... I think it's important to note that even an Anon can see eye to eye on some of the fears. And that's the only reason I'm posting this.

In the past, I've been a victim... so to speak... of "Psych abuse" as you scientologists would call it. Without going into specifics, I have some issues that do require some sort of treatment. And I've had a couple of shrinks to, in one way or the other, royally screw me over. If it's not financially, it's through medication. I don't even want to begin talking about my experiences.

I understand where a lot of ex-scientology kids are coming from when they have a very rough time trusting psychs. Now I am medicated, but not to the level I should be right now. At least not according to most specialists. The problems are minimum. But the problems do exist. Part of the reason I'm not fully medicated is because I too have a very hard time trusting psychologists and psychiatrists. I'm still trying to find one to trust. And believe me, it's rough. It's really rough. Thankfully, I have other outlets that I find therapeutic.

The problem I see with a lot of psychs is what you will hear from a lot of people; phony baloney diagnosis, over medication, self-interest, bribery from the pharmaceutical industry. You don't have to follow Hubbard to see that.

I can't say I hate the whole psychiatry field, as there have been psychologists that were nothing but good to me, but I do agree with a lot of the issues Scientology has against psychiatry.

I absolutely do not agree with how CoS goes about it, nor do I agree with LRH's initial reasons as to why he deemed psychs as devils, but this is not the place for me to criticize.

So, to all of you scientologists out there who are reading this, I just want to give you guys that much. I don't mean your leaders. I'll never give your leaders a lick of credit as long as there is blood pumping through these veins. This goes out to it's members and followers. Because I think you need to know, before you automatically deem us as 100% heretics, or SPs, whatever, remember that we're not entirely different.

We may not forgive, we may not forget, but for me, that doesn't just apply to the leaders of your faith's organization.
"Ba Ba"
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Grundy

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:07 am

This is more properly a "General Chatter" item. Not really Pro Scientology, so I moved it.
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Tru2form

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:59 am

Well, see, I think you've hit the nail on the head with that, Athl.

When I was working at CCHR, we'd get lots of calls from people like you, enough to convince me that there IS a lot of balony going on the psych industry, just as there's a lot of baloney going on in general medicine, and law, and the press, and everywhere else.

Everywhere there are people, there are crimes, sadly.

The thing is, there are a ton of people who DO think kids are overmedicated, and that there's abuse going on in that profession. The problem is, as you said, with the way Scientology and CCHR go about handling it. If they could chill out on the bogus intergalactic extremism for five seconds, they might realize they have a genuine cause on their hands.

But they can't.

Something I haven't talked about much is how actual psych patients were treated at CCHR. CCHR had an abuse-case hotline, an 800 number, where people like you who felt something was wrong would call.

We were told to pick up the phone and send them an abuse-case report form for them to fill out, which they could then return to us. The idea is that we'd review their case and then call them for an interview (that was my boss' job).

Well you know what? The entire year I worked there, I think I witnessed CCHR actually call a whopping total of three people back for an interview, and they only called the ones that they might be able to prosecute, or that might help them with their cause.

When I commented that abuse cases should recieve more personal attention, I was told, "What's more important? An individual person's problems, or getting legislation passed so that this stuff will never happen to anyone again?"

People who had been to a psych were usually treated as unsavory. No one wanted to take their calls. No one wanted to talk to them. Pathetic.
Us rabbits? DO something? - Wind in the Willows
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mommanouse

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:26 am

Some people really do struggle with psych treatment. However, to my mind, that's not a reason to flat-out ban ALL of it. A lot of people have problems with medical doctors too - I just spoke with a woman whose dermatologist poo-pooed what turned out to be skin cancer - and what would happen if we shut down the entire medical establishment? Disaster.
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dwest

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:12 pm

Welcome to the world of HMO insurance plans, IMO. Many years ago one could go to a psych, get meds and some therapy (the psych didn't want you on too many meds or he couldn't give therapy) and everyone went along their way.

Then the insurance companies realized they could save money by sending a patient to a MFT (person with a Master's degree and licensing) and voila! a lot of people were no longer getting the therapy they needed. The Psychs didn't know the side effects of the meds because they weren't seeing the patients every week any more, and most patients fell through the cracks.

HMO + Bad Shrinks == Bad Medicine
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Lurker

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:37 pm

Most people go into psychiatry because they want to help people. It does not often pay well. That's important to remember. The field has been widely reformed since LRH's time, so what was fishy in the 60's does not really exist now.

If you don't want to get involved with medication there can still be a lot of positive counseling experiences. That said, trying medication is not a bad thing if it improves your life. Your brain produces drugs constantly, so we are all drugged in that regard. Sometimes altering the mix can make your day manageable, since brains are not infallible. But it's important to observe how you feel and be sure it is actually making a good difference.

When I have an anxiety attack, I know that my brain is just overproducing panic drugs, which would be useful if I were in a fight with a bear, but not when I'm trying to sleep.

</rambling>
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bobb

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Post Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:17 am

just because drug A didn't work doesn't mean drug B won't, if you have a medical expert telling you to try drug B then try it, if it doesn't work, tell them, if they don't listen to you find another one who will. but it's quite likely with the right psychiatrist you won't even need drug B at all so the point is if your doctor isn't working out for you well find a different doctor.
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anonfemme

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Post Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:07 am

I have to agree to thinking that many children nowadays are overdiagnosed and overmedicated. That said, though, the way we eat today (although it is changing) is something new too. Many believe that the amount of chemicals that we consume today is a result of the rise in learning and other such disorders.

Having visited a shrink for a family member who has a disorder, I was suprised to find that the psychiatrist was actually anti-medication and preferred cognitive behaviour therapies and councelling.

Just like you can't say all co$ people are "evil" or "purposely corrupt", you can't claim that all pscyhiatrists are money hungry evil people.

They do earn a good income, but what else would you expect? Many train for 10 years in order to practice psychiatry. Seems only reasonable to me that they charge accordingly.

This is yet another example of how the co$ can so easily cast judgement on an entire profession based on antiquated knowledge and practises, and frankly ludicrous falsifying of facts, but yet wheneever anyone labels Scientology on a whole as any particular name, they call "discrimination".
Much love. xx
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gogogadget

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Post Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:06 pm

When I went to a shrink, I went to a Freudian who was very reluctant to prescribe drugs, and he insisted on a very thorough neurological assessment.

His point was some people are just miserable because of circumstance or socialization, and could be cognitively guided to a more reasonable way of living in the world, and people who have a biochemical problem can also benefit from talking out loud about stuff.

I did the classic couch thing, staring at the ceiling, and at one point in therapy, I mentioned that Freudian analysis wasn't Scientific, and he said "Oh, not at all. But for some people it really works."

I dunno. I don't know what your experience with your shrinks was, but I'm guessing if the therapist in question isn't able or willing to do the talking part of the therapy in a serious fashion before the topic of psychotropics is even brought up, it's time to move on.
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Lee_from_phx

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Post Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:53 am

Hubbard's opposition to the fields of Psychology and Psychiatry is due to the rejection he received from both groups when he presented them with his "research."

This is similar to Islam's hatred of Judaism, which stems directly from Muhammad being rejected and cast out when he attempted to proselytize to a Jewish community.

In both cases an evil prick got the door slammed in his face when he tried to put one over on a group of people who could see right through him.

There are of course psychiatrists who are no good, but that doesn't mean that the field is without merit.
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AthlAnon 88

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Post Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:34 am

Thread Necromancy!

Sorry I didn't follow up on this sooner. I had posted this shortly before Reconnect, thinking to myself "You know, there's always the chance another disaster* could strike the protest", and part of me just wanted to tell the Scientologists (be they with Co$ or Freezoners), "We're not too different, you and I." There was... a lot going through my mind

Which is why I had originally posted it in "Pro Scientology". Sorry Grundy!

Because if I were to go into detail, it'd break my Anonymity, but I had a shrink who gave me ZERO therapy and kept pushing drugs that I knew wouldn't work in my lap. He tried to prescribe me a certain medication THREE TIMES that a doctor I was seeing prior to him had gave me, and would end up with side-effects just as bad as the diagnosis. I found out from another one of his former patients that he was most certainly getting paid off by Pfizer to push Drug X.

What was so bad is I was paying this quack out of pocket for a little bit.

Tru2Form: Hearing that makes me VERY relieved I never bother turning coats (I was critical of Co$ well before Anonymous declared war) and telling my story to the CCHR. Well, no, seeing COB talking about "smart bombs" and "BLOWING UP THE PSYCH ECOSYSTEM!!!1" like he was Shredder from the old Ninja Turtles cartoon was enough to relieve me.

That alone is ENOUGH proof to show the world that Scientology, as an organization mind you, doesn't give a damn about helping people but pushing their own batshit insane agenda.

I mean... we had plenty of reasons before then, but damn...

Lee_from_phx: You basically said what I was referring to when I said I didn't agree with LRH's intent. Though, I usually compare it to Hitler getting rejected from art school.

What? Co$ called ME a nazi in a propaganda film of theirs, I can dish it RIGHT back on the hypocrites!

*For those of you that don't know, I was with the Georgia protesters on 3/15, when two were arrested. I was almost "#3" to be arrested, but they let me off for whatever reason. Ironically, I'm now the one Anon that will talk to the police to let them know when the Georgia Anons plan on striking. Funny world, yeah? So, you can see why I was thinking a million things at once, both in regards to Anonymous, and the people behind the very organization we stand against... and that includes the innocents.
"Ba Ba"
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Snoware

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Post Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:20 pm

My experience with psychs is in Canada. As we do not have to deal with HMO's and psychiatry services are provided under our universal health care, there is no pressure to limit therapy or pressure to go to a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist.

For those who distrust Psychs, do you also disbelieve that clinical depression has, at its root, the inability of one's brain to regulate serotonin?

Image

Scientology believes this is crap because it can't be proven. The reason it can't be proven is that it would require a brain biopsy. Now if a Scientologist would like to prove it wrong they could always volunteer.

Yes we hear stories of those who have had a hard time getting proper treatment, but is that the fault of psychiatry techniques or the US's for-profit medical insurance system?
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MCA

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Post Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:51 am

dwest wrote:Then the insurance companies realized they could save money by sending a patient to a MFT (person with a Master's degree and licensing)


Lol... Masters in Family Therapy...

Having dated an MFT, I know that MFT's are technically Psychologists, not Psychiatrists and they have heavy restrictions on what drugs they can prescribe through the additional pharmacology licensing they get... They certainly don't have the same drug power that a full psychiatrist gets.

I do agree that kids are overmedicated and I'm glad that the one thing my parents ever agreed upon was keeping me off Ritalin when I had trouble sitting still in class - I think kids are just being kids and we should deal with that.

However years ago I was in a serious clinical depression and I don't know what I would have done without the antidepressants I was put on - they seriously changed my life for the better, and after a year on them, the chemical imbalance corrected itself, and I'm happy as a clam now :)
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zuzuspetals

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Post Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:00 pm

Snoware suggested:

Scientology believes this is crap because it can't be proven. The reason it can't be proven is that it would require a brain biopsy. Now if a Scientologist would like to prove it wrong they could always volunteer.


A brain biopsy is not required to measure the relative levels of neurotransmitter chemicals such as serotonin; in primate studies spinal taps are used to measure and compare differences in serotonin levels.

Monkeys with low levels of serotonin are often socially shut-out by their fellows, they typically have more bodily scars from accidents and attacks, and their life expectancies are reduced.

Some, but not all, respond favorably to treatment with antidepressants.

For an approachable, very literary book that describes these studies, you may want to take a look at the book "Night Falls Fast: Understanding Suicide" by Kay Redfield Jamison.
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dwest

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Post Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:07 pm

MCA wrote:
dwest wrote:Then the insurance companies realized they could save money by sending a patient to a MFT (person with a Master's degree and licensing)


Lol... Masters in Family Therapy...

Having dated an MFT, I know that MFT's are technically Psychologists, not Psychiatrists and they have heavy restrictions on what drugs they can prescribe through the additional pharmacology licensing they get... They certainly don't have the same drug power that a full psychiatrist gets.

I do agree that kids are overmedicated and I'm glad that the one thing my parents ever agreed upon was keeping me off Ritalin when I had trouble sitting still in class - I think kids are just being kids and we should deal with that.

However years ago I was in a serious clinical depression and I don't know what I would have done without the antidepressants I was put on - they seriously changed my life for the better, and after a year on them, the chemical imbalance corrected itself, and I'm happy as a clam now :)


Where I live MFT's aren't even psychologists. You need a PhD or PsyD for that...but the insurance companies will send you to one for therapy (sure hope you don't need testing as they can't do that either). So then someone ends up with a guy prescribing mind-altering drugs who doesn't see you for more than ten minutes.
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Spork

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Post Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:18 pm

Snoware wrote:For those who distrust Psychs, do you also disbelieve that clinical depression has, at its root, the inability of one's brain to regulate serotonin?


As a rule, Scientologists are unwilling to consider the facts on this subject _at all._ It's more convenient for them to cook up some reason not to bother investigating the matter. So they're content to label anything written by a clinical psychologist or neuroscientist "entheta". That means: too disturbing, don't read.

What you find in the campaign against the "Psychs" is a witch-hunt predicated on the worst sort of anti-intellectualism, anti-scientism and sheer laziness.

My experience with Scientologists on this topic was overwhelmingly that they simply couldn't be bothered to do any real hard work -- like OMG actually reading an introductory textbook in psychology! Far easier to sit back and listen to Hubbard on a tape ranting on about why not to listen to the "Psychs".
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Snoware

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Post Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:48 pm

zuzuspetals wrote:Snoware suggested:

Scientology believes this is crap because it can't be proven. The reason it can't be proven is that it would require a brain biopsy. Now if a Scientologist would like to prove it wrong they could always volunteer.


A brain biopsy is not required to measure the relative levels of neurotransmitter chemicals such as serotonin; in primate studies spinal taps are used to measure and compare differences in serotonin levels.

Monkeys with low levels of serotonin are often socially shut-out by their fellows, they typically have more bodily scars from accidents and attacks, and their life expectancies are reduced.

Some, but not all, respond favorably to treatment with antidepressants.

For an approachable, very literary book that describes these studies, you may want to take a look at the book "Night Falls Fast: Understanding Suicide" by Kay Redfield Jamison.


This is good to know. I will check out the book.
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Snoware

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Post Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:53 pm

Spork wrote:
Snoware wrote:For those who distrust Psychs, do you also disbelieve that clinical depression has, at its root, the inability of one's brain to regulate serotonin?


As a rule, Scientologists are unwilling to consider the facts on this subject _at all._ It's more convenient for them to cook up some reason not to bother investigating the matter. So they're content to label anything written by a clinical psychologist or neuroscientist "entheta". That means: too disturbing, don't read.

What you find in the campaign against the "Psychs" is a witch-hunt predicated on the worst sort of anti-intellectualism, anti-scientism and sheer laziness.
My experience with Scientologists on this topic was overwhelmingly that they simply couldn't be bothered to do any real hard work -- like OMG actually reading an introductory textbook in psychology! Far easier to sit back and listen to Hubbard on a tape ranting on about why not to listen to the "Psychs".


I understand this, but my question was more targeted towards ex-scientologists. (My intent might not have matched my wording)

How difficult is it for them to erase the anti-Psych propaganda? How difficult is it to believe other theories surrounding the chemical imbalances in the brain?
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Orderous

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Post Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:04 pm

Snoware wrote:This is good to know. I will check out the book.


Pity the articles from Encyclopedia of Life Sciences are not free. They're definately some of the best resources out there.

It's honestly rather simple to get fluid material out of the brain, this is where most signalling molecules will be. Problems arise when there is a problem with a receptor, and you need to start purifying brain mass, which would require a brain biopsy.

Unfortunately I did not do the Neuroscience course (well, fortunately actually, after seeing the revision stuff they have to do), so I can't give you any specific detail at this time.
The most important thing to learn about Life, the Universe, and Everything, is firstly; the answer is 42, and secondly; how utterly ridiculous it truly is
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Anonymuzs

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Post Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:15 am

Coming from a family background of mental health, I have to agree with most things said.

Especially in the united states, late 90's to about 2003-2004 there were a lot of "bad psychs". People that got pumped out of degree mills and thought that because they bought a fancy couch and could look like they are paying attention, they could solve peoples head problems. Compound that by the fact some of these guys were also able to prescribe medicines and anyone can see why there was a lot of abuse.

Regulations have improved however, and although I can guarantee there are still some bad psychs out there, the problem is improving.

People must still remember that even the best trained psychiatrist is human and cannot perfectly diagnose everything each time. This applies to anything relating your health really, but get second opinions, don't wait to say something if you don't think it's working and don't hesitate to tell anyone to fuck off if what they are telling you to do isn't helping.
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