Well, here goes...

Moderator: doubleVee

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Twiggy

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Post Thu May 01, 2008 1:35 am

Well, here goes...

Hoo boy! Where to start? Well, let's start with me:

I may be flamed to high hell for this, but in all honesty, I don't care. I'm not toting around a soap box, I'm just writing to get some thoughts flickering about in my cavernous skull onto some pixelated parchment.

I'm an ex-Sea Org member, I've been out for a few years now. I still consider myself a Scientologist, I'm one of the crazies that entices you to buy books on the weekends. I was in the Sea Org for quite awhile, and thusly, met and befriended quite a few of you. It's surprising how many of you I remember; Astra, Emily, Melanie, Kendra, Alex, Kim, Tiffany, Izzy and quite a few others (I don't know if all of you post or read these forums, but I've seen your names mentioned).

Now, as I have been lurking since the genesis of this site, I am quite aware that the Sea Org has a certain stigma on these forums which I will describe delicately as unsavory. However, I feel like the Sea Org made me into a better, more capable person, vis-a-vis bad times and good times. I also feel that through the SO, I've met and made life-long friends that I will truly love, remember and cherish, despite anything and everything, let alone a trivial matter such as someone's religious beliefs.

For those of you that were hurt, scarred or generally mistreated by anyone in the Sea Org or Scientologists, I am effusively sorry and I feel that no one has the right to treat you in a manner unbecoming of a human being. I do hope you all are doing well and everything is "on the up and up". I'd love to find out more about how you are doing, and I read over your stories of times in the SO, leaving and after, with eager and sometimes sympathetic eyes.

To be clear(pun?), I believe in Scientology and it has been one of the most influential experiences in my entire life (the second being my parents). Were the Church to be dismantled and prohibited worldwide, I would still harbor my books and lectures, read and listen to them and enjoy them. Not in some sort of religious trance or some zealous fervor, but because I do enjoy reading and listening to Ron's philosophies on life and people and just about everything under the sun, moon and stars. I'm not in it for the organization, I'm in it for selfish old me, because I like it.

I'm not going to disclose my identity, as I feel I will be flamed, unfortunately, engulfing me from both sides. I will continue to read, occasionally post and generally live up to the title of lurker.

This ended up becoming a bit long and soap-boxy for which I apologize, and here follows a tl;dr version below.

tl;dr: Hi! \^_^/
You know, I really hate it when people simply can't finish their
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LronIsgonE_Snap

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Post Thu May 01, 2008 2:15 am

Twiggy, I don't think you deserve to be flamed just because you enjoy LRH materials. As a long-time lurker I'm sure you are aware that on this site you would be in the minority on this issue. Some may strongly disagree with you. Personally I'm happy to let you peacefully maintain your opinions as long as you don't expect me to become an LRH fan.
Enjoy your life today,
For time is fleeting.
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Grundy

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Post Thu May 01, 2008 3:38 am

Triggy - Im an admin here and I see where you are coming from. (see my thread in Pro Scientology).

So welcome. It will be nice to have a somewhat pro-scientology viewpoint that doesn't have to be objective (like me lol). Good for contrast.

Read. Learn. Live.

Grundy,
Another ESK Closet Scientologist lol
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Holden Caulfield

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Post Thu May 01, 2008 4:59 am

It's always good to have your own opinion on things regardless if they are pro or con. You've had good experiences in Scientology and I think that's fine
and I and everyone else here should respect that.

I was sitting and thinking to myself the other day what I've actually benefited from Scientology myself and the only thing I could come up with is that some of the theories such as the Dynamics of Life and the Tone Scale, if taking with a grain of salt as all theories should, have given me a rather unique outlook on life compared to a lot of people.

I'd say maybe 5 of 10% of the Scientology teachings/theories are useful and worthy of further research, on the other hand, they are more like common sense. Some of them have a new slant to them, that's all.
"If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth."
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Thalkirst

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Post Thu May 01, 2008 10:09 am

Hi Twiggy, welcome to ESK!

I was a Sea Org member myself for quite a while.

I do have to agree with you that I have learned a lot in the Sea Org. Also, I still have my Scientology materials and use them now and then.

You don't have to feel bad about it. Unlike a certain Church, most of the ex-scientologists (including me) do respect the different opinion of others :)

In retrospect, the biggest problem was the purpose the tech was used for and the Tone Level it was used on.

Stats, hats, org boards and VFPs properly used by a relatively sane leader, can increase productivity and efficiency.

But if they are used to intimidate, harrass and suppress, the results can be disastrous.

Also, on justice:

HCO PL A New Hope for Justice and HCO PL Injustice are brilliant and provide a great foundation for a truly effective justice system.

Too bad that most of the OSA and RTC personnel is stuck on SP witchhunts and labeling anything they don't like as "suppressive", Comm Eving anyone who disagrees with the findings and recommendations worked out before the Comm Ev is held and that is mostly their understanding of justice.

I am not saying that LRH is innocent. He definitely had his own bullshit (overboarding people, inability to correct himself, SP declaring his most loyal followers).

So, in other words, welcome! :)
Ex Sea Org member
My blog about SO and Scn abuses in Hungarian: http://objektivszcn.blog.hu/
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Phat92toy

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Post Wed May 14, 2008 8:29 pm

I'm not sure who you are but I guess you know me, glad to hear that you found some pleasure in Scientology. My experience was not so pleasant but I say to each there own. I have family still very active in the CoS so I can understand your need to be unknown.
I have mad respect for you for posting!

Always, Em
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mickwenlock

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Post Sat May 17, 2008 2:27 am

Re: Well, here goes...

Twiggy wrote:I'm an ex-Sea Org member, I've been out for a few years now. I still consider myself a Scientologist, I'm one of the crazies that entices you to buy books on the weekends. I was in the Sea Org for quite awhile, and thusly, met and befriended quite a few of you. It's surprising how many of you I remember; Astra, Emily, Melanie, Kendra, Alex, Kim, Tiffany, Izzy and quite a few others (I don't know if all of you post or read these forums, but I've seen your names mentioned).


Why did you leave the SO especially as it seems to have been such a wonderful experience?

Now, as I have been lurking since the genesis of this site, I am quite aware that the Sea Org has a certain stigma on these forums which I will describe delicately as unsavory. However, I feel like the Sea Org made me into a better, more capable person, vis-a-vis bad times and good times. I also feel that through the SO, I've met and made life-long friends that I will truly love, remember and cherish, despite anything and everything, let alone a trivial matter such as someone's religious beliefs.


I presume that you joined the SO at a young age. Have you considered that most young people go through an intense growing period - no matter where they are? I had similar feelings about my time in a motorcycle gang. Still do. Some people get it from college and some from the military. That doesn't make your experience invalid, at all, it just means that it is not special to Scientology or the Sea Org. It is special to YOU.

To be clear(pun?), I believe in Scientology and it has been one of the most influential experiences in my entire life (the second being my parents). Were the Church to be dismantled and prohibited worldwide, I would still harbor my books and lectures, read and listen to them and enjoy them. Not in some sort of religious trance or some zealous fervor, but because I do enjoy reading and listening to Ron's philosophies on life and people and just about everything under the sun, moon and stars. I'm not in it for the organization, I'm in it for selfish old me, because I like it.


have you ever studied anything else?

I'm not going to disclose my identity, as I feel I will be flamed, unfortunately, engulfing me from both sides. I will continue to read, occasionally post and generally live up to the title of lurker.

This ended up becoming a bit long and soap-boxy for which I apologize, and here follows a tl;dr version below.

tl;dr: Hi! \^_^/


Glad you posted and glad you are happy with where you are. Unhappy that you support such an evil organization.
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
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TheWiseOne

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Post Sat May 17, 2008 2:56 am

I agree with you Twiggy! I too like Scientology itself don't confuse that with the antagonistic individuals who call themselves Scientologist and don't practice what they preach, and unlike many of the people on this forum. My experiences were not as bad. I can honestly tell you that the best years of my life, although not many, were the ones I had in the Sea Org and in Scientology. My outlook on life was a little different but I was also a much stronger person when I was there than I am today. I read the books whenever I can get my hands on them because they really have a lot of truths in there that would really help me. I always felt that back then I didn't care much about Scientology, because I was young and I had not experienced life as an adult, and I didn't experience all the things that the toughness of life does to you in this outside world. Well now that I have, I think that I need Scientology more than ever, and when I read some of the books, nowadays, I find a lot of truths and tools that make sense to me. I had been really depressed and anxious for a while, and I tried a taste of freezone auditing, and it was great, It was just what I needed, with no drugs, no nothing, just me trying it out and it made me realize things, and it made me feel genuinely good. Some times I just don't like to say these things, because on some forums, you get attacked for it.
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outlander

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Post Sat May 17, 2008 10:52 pm

As many bad things I experienced and saw in the SO, I will also agree that the SO was a key part in my evolution (good or bad) and is a part of who I am and what I have become.

If I hadn't my SO training and experience, I wouldn't have been able to overcome many of the challenges on my life journey, and would not be shooting as high as I am.

My regrets with the SO are the damage it did to my family, the unethical things we had to do to accomplish certain goals, and fact that the environment has a tendancy to eliminate compassion and understanding in people, at least at the highese levels.
Create that of your life that which you would like to see in a changed world. Ghandi
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astra

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Post Sun May 18, 2008 5:48 pm

Hi Twiggy,
Welcome. While we don't necessarily share the same point of few on scientology itself, that doesn't mean we at ESK don't respect your opinions. Just the fact that you have come on and said hi is great. Everyone is entitled to their point of view.
While I don't agree with scientology as a whole, my main issue with the CofS is their treatment of sea org members, especially children and the abortion issue as well as holding people against their will and things like the RPF.
Thanks for coming on our boards and saying hi. I am of course curious to know who you are as you say you remember me. But I respect your choice to remain anonymous. Glad to have you here.
Astra
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mickwenlock

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Post Mon May 19, 2008 2:11 pm

outlander wrote:As many bad things I experienced and saw in the SO, I will also agree that the SO was a key part in my evolution (good or bad) and is a part of who I am and what I have become.


excellent point.

If I hadn't my SO training and experience, I wouldn't have been able to overcome many of the challenges on my life journey, and would not be shooting as high as I am.


This contradicts your first statement, bear with me a second because I think this is an important point.

You and I are who we are. This point we have reached in our lives includes our time in Scientology and there is no way to change it.

But your statement " I would not have been able to.." - how can you possibly know that this is the case? If you had been in the military or had gone to college or whatever, you may well have found yourself able to do whatever it is you are doing. In fact you may well have been in a far better position than you are right now. But be that as it may - the fact that YOU are able to do whatever it is you wish to do - is a credit to YOU, not Scientology.

I have found that a lot of what I gave Scientology or the Sea Org credit for was, in fact, just the process of growing up and maturing.

My regrets with the SO are the damage it did to my family, the unethical things we had to do to accomplish certain goals, and fact that the environment has a tendancy to eliminate compassion and understanding in people, at least at the highese levels.


good points.
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
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outlander

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Post Tue May 20, 2008 4:10 am

Mick,

Hmm ... that leads into another point I discussed in detail earlier on in my posts on ESK ...

Are we what we are, or are we products of our environment and experiences. I was heavily trained in logic when I was in the Sea Org, evaluation, but I use the same skills in developing processes in my current work, things like energy recovery and waste from energy. The physics and sciences are completely different to people of orgs, but the ability to read and trouble shoot process flows, take something from a lab and turn it into a 4 story full scale plant without any formal education (I'm a high school drop out) is a skill.

I have been meeting my high school friends fairly frequently over the last few years in attempt to recover some of my lost youth, and none of them have accomplished things like I have.

I can walk into almost any business from a doctors office to a power plant, or a gas well, a crisis center for a natural disaster, almost anything, look at it, understand it, communicate intelligently about it, and contribute positively to it.

Why is this?

Part of it is that I was trianed to BS my way into and through things in the SO, to understand and exploit weaknesses in people, and to make them do what I wanted, to find problems and make them go away.

I am not that smart, I don't think, maybe a little smarter than average, but I have no right to enjoy the success I have now. I am doing the things I was trained to do in the Sea Org, but I am using them with a consience ... work very hard not to hurt.

My working theory, perhaps it is a naive dream, is that I somehow corrected my "kharma" and am taking the "powers" developed in the SO and using them to forward a positive purpose.

Some people are scared of me, some consider me a bit of tirant, but most people consider me fair, honest, honorable and compassionate, a visionary, and extremely ambitious.

I know that I BS my way through many things to muddle through ... but I don't do it for my own self benefit alone.

If I hadn't spent 5+ years in the highest orgs in int Management I don't think I would have the same outcome post SO as if, say, I spent 10 years in CLO ANZO.

Like Bea, I find this somwhat confusing to understand. It screws with my head to figure it out because it is a jumble of contradictions in programming I have not been fully able to unwire yet.

For me, it is easier to find a purpose I can get behind, a dream, or a vision, and act towards forwarding it with a clean heart and selflessness, but structure the deal in a way where if I help others win, I also win. It is not easy for me to pursue financial gain for myself, but much easier for me push helping others, and if that helps me and I don't think about it too much, my personal situation improves. My most standards I would be considered a multi millionare, built entirely over the last 5 years, but people don't know it looking at me, the way I dress, the type cars I own, or what have you.

You are right, I don't know that I wouldn't have been able to. But what happened happened, it is what it is, any of a thousand things in my history could have happened which would have led me down a different path and not to the point I am at in my life, which I rather enjoy and am challenged by.

So, professor wenlock, can you save me from myself?
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mickwenlock

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Post Tue May 20, 2008 2:28 pm

outlander wrote:Mick,

Hmm ... that leads into another point I discussed in detail earlier on in my posts on ESK ...

Are we what we are, or are we products of our environment and experiences. I was heavily trained in logic when I was in the Sea Org, evaluation, but I use the same skills in developing processes in my current work, things like energy recovery and waste from energy. The physics and sciences are completely different to people of orgs, but the ability to read and trouble shoot process flows, take something from a lab and turn it into a 4 story full scale plant without any formal education (I'm a high school drop out) is a skill.


Yes you obviously have a skill but I don't think it has much to with what passes for "logic" in Hubbard's work.

I understand relating your ability now to your experience in the SO after all what else is there to relate it to? Bear in mind that if the experience at Int was so wonderful and is the reason why you are able to do what you do - why isn't everyone from Int like that?

I have not read anyone's experiences from Int describing it as a good or worthwhile place to be. So - all of us who were in the Sea Org know how to work unbelievably long hours and how to neglect anything else. That does tend to make us desirable employees - I should thank the SO for that? I think not.

I have been meeting my high school friends fairly frequently over the last few years in attempt to recover some of my lost youth, and none of them have accomplished things like I have.


not sure what your point is.

If you believe that somehow Scientology and the SO are responsible for your being able to do all this stuff then surely you should be recruiting like mad for it?

I can walk into almost any business from a doctors office to a power plant, or a gas well, a crisis center for a natural disaster, almost anything, look at it, understand it, communicate intelligently about it, and contribute positively to it.


I will have to take your word for it. I have met plenty of Exes who have told me the same sort of thing but I never saw any evidence of it.

Why is this?


You are asking me to explain something that you sincerely believe and that I have my doubts about. I can tell you this, categorically - that it has nothing to do with Scientology - Hubbard never even had an idea of how to run budgets. His idea of statistical management is moronic - I have found very few exes who even know anything about statistics in the real world.

Part of it is that I was trianed to BS my way into and through things in the SO, to understand and exploit weaknesses in people, and to make them do what I wanted, to find problems and make them go away.


Now THAT is one excellent point. We were thoroughly trained in manipulation. And, I have to say that in a small way this is a useful skill.

I am not that smart, I don't think, maybe a little smarter than average, but I have no right to enjoy the success I have now. I am doing the things I was trained to do in the Sea Org, but I am using them with a consience ... work very hard not to hurt.


I think you underestimate yourself. There are many different kinds of "smart". there are people who are smart around animals, people who are smart around construction, cars, computers and so on. Maybe you are smart around systems (for want of a better word). That this works well for you is a credit to YOU.

My working theory, perhaps it is a naive dream, is that I somehow corrected my "kharma" and am taking the "powers" developed in the SO and using them to forward a positive purpose.


"Luke! Come over to the dark side". Actually, joking aside, I think you have laid out a very positive thing.

Some people are scared of me, some consider me a bit of tirant, but most people consider me fair, honest, honorable and compassionate, a visionary, and extremely ambitious.


I'll leave that alone...

I know that I BS my way through many things to muddle through ... but I don't do it for my own self benefit alone.


Good outlook if I may say so.

If I hadn't spent 5+ years in the highest orgs in int Management I don't think I would have the same outcome post SO as if, say, I spent 10 years in CLO ANZO.


You are going to have to forgive me here - IMHO you are still stuck in the scientology mindset that somehow "int" was superior to "clo" - not true, unless you are claiming that the insanity so rampant at int produces good products? By that logic the Jews who survived the concentration camps should have been ruthless overachievers.

But there is no way of verifying or disproving how you feel and it probably would not achieve anything anyway. You are obviously happy with what you are doing and it doesn't matter if you attribute that to "int" or to "pink elephants who love me".

Like Bea, I find this somwhat confusing to understand. It screws with my head to figure it out because it is a jumble of contradictions in programming I have not been fully able to unwire yet.


Yeah I can believe it - part of this is the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy. The idea that because something happened later in a sequence that it was caused by the prior thing. Just because you left the SO and went on to be successful at something does not mean that it was being in the SO that made you successful. Has it occurred to you that were it NOT for the SO you might be even more successful? For example.

For me, it is easier to find a purpose I can get behind, a dream, or a vision, and act towards forwarding it with a clean heart and selflessness, but structure the deal in a way where if I help others win, I also win. It is not easy for me to pursue financial gain for myself, but much easier for me push helping others, and if that helps me and I don't think about it too much, my personal situation improves. My most standards I would be considered a multi millionare, built entirely over the last 5 years, but people don't know it looking at me, the way I dress, the type cars I own, or what have you.


Bear with me I have a comment to make on this but at the end

You are right, I don't know that I wouldn't have been able to. But what happened happened, it is what it is, any of a thousand things in my history could have happened which would have led me down a different path and not to the point I am at in my life, which I rather enjoy and am challenged by.

So, professor wenlock, can you save me from myself?


Not interested in saving you :D - you seem to be happy enough from what you are saying and I do hope that is the case. UNless, of course, you wish to be saved?

My point is that the insanity of Scientology does not produce "good people" or "able people" it produces overt products and destroys people. That some people do survive it and do well is not a justification for Scientology or the Sea Org.

You seem happy with your "stats" and talking about them - that tells me that you have a long journey ahead of you.

I do wish you all the very best with it.
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
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sabrina

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Post Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:12 pm

I like the fact that you actually found something possitive in what many may have not, or at least don't express they have. I have had all sorts of mental and physical problems that all started the moment I wanted to route off staff. Most of those problems, from what I can see stem from my overwhelming fear of doing the unimaginable, leaving the SO. I was petrafied, in fear of my very existance, I was told I was at the very least crazy and treated like a criminal for months on end because I simply wanted to be with my ex husband, because I finaly met someone I loved. So my experiences where terrible when I wanted to leave, but before that point they weren't great, but I had no real squabble, because I never experienced such a great loss and disconnect as what they did with my ex. So in my mind I would have grown up happy anywhere I lived, I was very sociable, active and liked doing what was expected of me and actually found joy in that. BTW, my mom died of cancer when I was 16 and my dad was declared when I was 15, so the only people that were family to me, or who I was not affraid of, because the wog world was bad and evil, were SO members, but even they were indoctrinated into treating me like I was worthless and a criminal when I wanted to route off staff. So when I really weigh out the good and the bad, I would have to say, if I could, I would have never joined staff when I was 14, although I know my experiences have made me who I am, the bad experiences that I went hrough outweigh the positive experiences by 10X, it's no comparrison. So that's just my point of view on the matter, but again, I think you are allowed to have your own opinion and respect that you feel good about Scientology, hey if it helps you I don't think it's bad. But if it harms many something needst o be done, or at least fixed.
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Grundy

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Post Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:20 pm

sabrina wrote:I like the fact that you actually found something possitive in what many may have not, or at least don't express they have. I have had all sorts of mental and physical problems that all started the moment I wanted to route off staff. Most of those problems, from what I can see stem from my overwhelming fear of doing the unimaginable, leaving the SO. I was petrafied, in fear of my very existance, I was told I was at the very least crazy and treated like a criminal for months on end because I simply wanted to be with my ex husband, because I finaly met someone I loved. So my experiences where terrible when I wanted to leave, but before that point they weren't great, but I had no real squabble, because I never experienced such a great loss and disconnect as what they did with my ex. So in my mind I would have grown up happy anywhere I lived, I was very sociable, active and liked doing what was expected of me and actually found joy in that. BTW, my mom died of cancer when I was 16 and my dad was declared when I was 15, so the only people that were family to me, or who I was not affraid of, because the wog world was bad and evil, were SO members, but even they were indoctrinated into treating me like I was worthless and a criminal when I wanted to route off staff. So when I really weigh out the good and the bad, I would have to say, if I could, I would have never joined staff when I was 14, although I know my experiences have made me who I am, the bad experiences that I went hrough outweigh the positive experiences by 10X, it's no comparrison. So that's just my point of view on the matter, but again, I think you are allowed to have your own opinion and respect that you feel good about Scientology, hey if it helps you I don't think it's bad. But if it harms many something needst o be done, or at least fixed.


Just a question .. have you talked to your dad since?
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doubleVee

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Post Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:07 pm

Wow, so much to say, I'm not sure I can do it justice, but here goes nothin'.

Twiggy: You are welcome here whatever your personal religious views. I for one am not going to attack you for them, and I doubt anyone else will. We might want to discuss a few points :) or question you about why you believe what you do, but that's not the same as flaming right? I for one spent quite a few years out of the SO and still a Scientologist. I should know that there are many different points of view and depths of involvement. This is supposed to be the age of open-mindedness and religious freedom, right? I think that same open-mindedness is what a lot of us want to see in Scientologists. So we would be rather hypocritcal to "flame" you for expressing your views.

Outlander: I, too, agree that the SO was a key part in my evolution (good or bad) and I like how you put that.

However, the question of whether we are who we are because of our experiences, or some innate quality (nature vs nurture) is a sticky one. Lots of debate over the world about that. I personally think it's both. What happens to us effects who we are inside, but what we do with those experiences and how we handle them in the moment is a reflection of who we were to start with.

What did I learn in the SO? I learned that I am a lot stronger than I thought I was. I learned that when I have the internal fortitude and the incentive, I can stay up longer and put out more effort. This is a basic lesson that the US Military uses Basic Training ("boot camp") to teach. Could I have learned the same lesson there, or somewhere else? I say yes.

What else did I learn from my childhood in Scientology? That people are evil and the depths to which they will sink are always greater than you expect... I could have learned that lesson touring concentration camps, or being a social worker, or the way my husband learned it -- as a cop on the street. I would rather not know that lesson as well as I do! I could have done without the firsthand experience. I had to leave Scientology, and get to know some non-Scientologists, before I was willing to say maybe people are also good and can also surprise you with their goodness.

I have a VERY clear recall on who I was as a young child. At the age of 6 I know I had a pretty strongly developed personality. I can look back with my grown-up eyes and say that I was stubbornly dogged toward any goal. I was so focused on whatever my goal was at the moment that I almost always got it. (I was on a pre-olympic swim team and gymnastic team.) I was disgustingly self-assured but also aware that it was not desireable to be stuck-up or a braggart, compassionate about other people's feelings, friendly and happy pretty much no matter what. I know from my IQ tests that I was extrememly intelligent, in fact freakishly so, with a photographic memory. Oh and I never shut up. All of these things were part of the "package", bundled with me if you will forgive a computer reference. At 6 years old not much had happened in my world to shape me into that person, I just was.

Now, I know not everybody had the experiences I did growing up, in fact I'm kind of lonely in that regard (not that I would wish it on anyone else). Although my SO career was pretty typical. By the time I joined the Sea Org I had endured 13 years of what I guess counts as severe abuse at the hands of my parents, various boarding school bullies, and other Scientologist adults. Then I spent 4 years in the SO which was both different and the same, better and worse. At the end of all of that my personality had changed in a lot of ways. I spoke as little as possible, I was terrified of people, terrified of the future. I was certain that I was a very bad person. I was also certain that I was inept, stupid, incapable, retarded, and various other things along those lines. My memory was shot -- I was lucky if I could remember what I did 3 hours ago. I was sick, unable to eat, and having seizures. I was very very close to killing myself out of exhaustion, fear, and despair.

But deep down, hiding I guess, was the same core person that I was at 6. (I didn't know she was still there.) I didn't kill myself. In fact I managed to pull myself together (even though it took me years) to the point that I am happily married, a mom, in college, and have built a real life for myself that makes me happy. Did I do all that because of Scientology? No. For one thing, if it weren't for Scientology, I would have been taken away from my parents early on and that starts a whole other chain of "what ifs".

So here's the question: did I get the strength to climb out of the gutter from being in the SO? Did I get the will to not give up from being "toughened up" by my parents? I don't think so. Those attributes which many of us saw while in the Sea Org, that determination and energy and follow-through, are things which were inherent in us already. The adversity of the SO just gave us a chance to find out.

When I was in the SO I did think it was because of the SO. Even for a while after I left. Because I carried around with me the knowlege that I could endure, that I could step up to the plate, I thanked the Sea Org -- for a while. Then I started to realize that that wasn't true.

I have met other girls who went through some of the same experiences as I did. They all reacted in very different ways. The girl with the most similar story to mine (dad abused her, dad died, mom is nuts, dropped out of school) is now a stripper and on drugs. What makes us different? Why aren't I in the same place she is? My husband's parents were alcoholics, negligent at best, and most of his high school friends are in jail for dealing drugs, car theft, and federal credit card fraud. How come he is a Police Officer and about to graduate from college?

Whatever it is inside me that made me survive all of this, I cannot say it was given to me by my parents or by Scientology or by the Sea Org. It was there already. Maybe God gave it to me, maybe it just grew there because of something genetic, who knows?

At the same time, my experiences certainly changed who I am permanently. I will never go back to being that same kid that I was. I won't ever leave behind some of the lessons I learned (like not trusting people) even tho some people argue that I am wrong. To that degree my life has made an imprint on my soul or personality or whatever you want to call it.

I'm just glad that that stubborness was big enough to last through so much crap for so long, even if I lost touch with it for a while. I wouldn't want to miss out on my life now, that would be a tragedy. But I do sometimes wish that I could have learned those lessons a different way. For one thing, more people understand you when you say you've served in the military!
Somebody has to speak for these people.... no more running. I aim to misbehave.... If you can't do something smart, do something right. (Serenity)
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Guntur

EPFer

Posts: 24

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:18 pm

Post Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:44 pm

I, of course, have never been in the SO, or a scientologist. But, from what I have read here and personal conversations I have had, scientology takes so much away from individuals that it kind of scares me. Here's my point: when you did well in school, or whatever, was it because you were gifted or a great person, or a fast learner, or whatver, or was it the "Tech" that gave you the gift? From what I have learned, the answer from scientology is, invariable, the "Tech." "Oh, aren't you so fortunate that we are here to give you what you have achieved?"

What about the fact that some folks are good at things? It is so dehumanizing and degrading to say that someone wouldn't have been good at anything without some wonderful "gift" from these folks.

I agree that the debate of nature vs. nurture is a sticky one, and I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I can personally speak about the military as a parallel. Similar thing, a kind of instant humility check for anyone that goes in. You are now part of a group and you must give up a measure of your individuality, learn how we do things, speak, etc.. However, there was never the attitude that the military was giving me everything I needed to succeed, nor one that I was nothing before and will be a "degraded being" if I ever leave. I always had freedom of choice (albeit to a more limited degree). What did I learn? I learned that to be a good leader you have to first learn to be a good follower and to empathize with those you will be leading. Never tell someone to do something that you wouldn't be willing to do yourself. Always choose the hard right over the easy wrong. And, always listen to those that know more than you do, regardless of age, rank, or whatever. I took away these lessons, but many of them were a part of my beliefs when I walked in; they were just refined and more clearly defined, and I had real-world practice against which to put my theoretical beliefs and attitudes.

Getting to the hard right over the easy wrong point. I have heard some folks say that they had to do some unethical things to get ahead. Is this common? Are we just talking about pumping up statistics and stuff, or worse? I can see that under the tremendous pressure to always improve, it would be understandable and common, especially in the face of threat to your personal freedom, sanity, and immortal future. But, here's where logic doesn't work for me: How can stats always be up? Someone always has a bad day sometimes, and there is a point of diminishing returns in all things. It's insane to think it's possible or expect that every stat will always be up or else head off to the RPF. WTF, folks. All that lends to is bad information because someone is coerced to "make it happen."

So, to those of you who took good things out of the SO, or scientology, or any other aspect of your life, good for you. I agree with everyone here when I say that I would never flame anyone for saying that they choose to practice scientology or any other religion. But, I also agree with doubleVee: "We might want to discuss a few points." I know what I disagree with about scientology, and it's not the fact that people take good things away from it, or the fact that they use it to improve their lives. I know what the practice of certain beliefs contained therein is doing to me and mine, and, therefore, I have a problem with that.

Guntur
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outlander

OT8 Class 12

Posts: 416

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:30 am

Location: USA

Post Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:29 pm

Wow, this post resurfaces (hi everyone).

Had to answer, briefly, because I felt this was an important post, it centers around the whole reason I am involved with ESK, and my focus concerning Scientology.

Also, MickWenlocks characterization of me pissed me off enough that I decided to go play in my own sand box, and "the hell with him".

Specifically, he accused me of distastefully touting success I have had in some areas of my post SO life to bolster my own ego, by touting specifics and facts, and that he pitied me for such. (I don’t accept pity well).

Yes, I know you have to be thick skinned to put yourself out there, but this so severely mischaracterized my intentions and actions in being here, I spat the dummy.

Coming out of the Sea Org, coming out of Scientology is HARD AND DIFFICULT! Despite the fact that some of the most remarkable people I have ever met were in the SO, very few feel they have achieved real success, or what they are capable of, or are doing something they consider worthwhile. Many are struggling financially. Many are doing jobs they hate. Imagine spending half your life trying to save the world, leaving and selling used cars. Nothing against used car salesmen, we need them, but what does this do to your heart and soul?

I want to help educate and inspire ESK and EXSO that they can dream and make those dreams come true. I don't want to do this with bullshit advice from someone who has not really achieved anything, pretending different success they don't have. First rule of finding mentors in life success is examining if their success is real, and is their way of doing things compatible with the way you think and want to act. That is the reason I give specifics on achievements.

I am keeping my identity anonymous, primarily to protect people close to me from church retaliation, but also because I don't feel comfortable talking about my success and what I have openly to people. What does friendship or dating have to do with financial standing or success? Nothing, so I don't talk about it. When people know me and then do find out my real financial status, they are generally shocked and say "I never would have guessed", even my banker has said that to me. I like that, I like being understated, as my whole life in the SO was very arrogant and overstated and pretentious. Being understated does wonders for ones self confidence and ego.

Remaining anonymous allows me to more complete information on decisions and actions and consequences than telling the story.

I believe what I might share is of potential value or interest to others. I believe there is much I can learn from others here as well. I want to respectfully share.

I also believe being incessantly negative on Scientology and the Sea Org experience is poison for the heart, mind, soul and for ones passion and drive. I believe it is impossible to achieve success and "life energy" with an obsessive hatred in ones heart. This understanding is a key part of my success.

Mick pointedly attacked my statements that I learned positive things from my experiences at Int. To my understanding and memory, Mick was never at Int, so he doesn't really have the right to criticize my interpretation of my experiences.

Everything boils down to choice. We can't change what has happened to us, we can change what it means to us.

I choose that the worst and most damaging things that have occurred to me are the most empowering and changing forces in moving my life forward. I believe in failing forward fast.

For me this is not so much about the horrible things that have happened to us in Scientology and the Sea Org, but rather how we might embrace our experiences and challenges to build our futures.
Create that of your life that which you would like to see in a changed world. Ghandi

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