LOAs? Libs?

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dt2000

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Post Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:34 pm

LOAs? Libs?

Any comments or stories? I know I sure have mine.

Just one to start... I was in the SO already for my 13th Birthday. My mom flew into town and wanted to see me for my Birthday. I CSW'ed and as of the night before the day I still hadn't heard back. I went anyway. Saying I thought the "Merc" message said it was approved. Pulling a "dumb kid" stunt.

Apparently it was DISAPPROVED. Somehow it wasn't considered a blow. I almost wish it was and my long Sea Org career could have taken a different turn. At least I got to spend the day with my mom :roll:

Every LOA I ever took was a complete "engram" you could say.

And Libs? Ha ha ha. In 13 years I probably could count the number of libs days on two hands.
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Tru2form

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Post Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:02 pm

Well, I was never in the SO, but I remember my cousin not being able to make it to Christmas because he was on RPF.
Us rabbits? DO something? - Wind in the Willows
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NoSOat10

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Post Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:35 am

For me, every lib my family tried to take was a total joke. They couldn't tell if their CSW was approved until the last possible second, or later, and when it did happen, it was most likely they'd arrive 4 hours late for a 6 hour time slot. Getting together at 10pm to go back at 12, for example. Worth it, but just barely. Can't even say how many times we got together over what duration. That would give the SO a bad name.
Don’t get interested in real estate. Don’t get interested in the masses of buildings, because that’s not important.
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Grundy

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Post Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:51 am

It was 2 years I was in the SO before I got 1 libs day ..

Another year before the second ..

It was regular for a while...

And then it was gone ...
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Iknowtoomuch

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Post Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:55 pm

I got one LOA the entire time I was there. And it was a mess trying to get out of there. An exec in my org at the time told me I had better come back.
So much for Scientologists trusting people.
"Everybody has a right to believe what they want to believe. But I don't believe that anybody has a right to trick anybody, to hurt anybody, to harm some body, for their own purposes." - Jason Beghe
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Public Clammer

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Post Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:03 pm

Re csw's, loa & libs

My experiences exactly similar! Who can say why? It puzzles me still!
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astra

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Post Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:52 pm

Thank god my last libs was approved. Because it was the day I blew. Somehow it was approved because my stats were up. We rarely got libs. I almost never did the entire time I worked in HCO because I was always in trouble.

Libs days were a mixed bag of emotion. Shear joy at the idea of a day off, disbelief if it was actually approved, crushing dispair if it was not, but having to act like you weren't upset. And then if you had the day off, spending the whole time dreading going back the following day and confronting whatever flap had likely occured the day you were gone and answering to where you had been. It almost wasn't worth it. But it sure was worth it the day I left and got on a plane at LAX instead of going back to post.
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Iknowtoomuch

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Post Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:10 pm

The biggest reason I could figure out was many people didn't want others to take libs because they themselves weren't allowed to take libs.
If I got my CSW approved too late the day before, I was afraid it would be late rejected.
I'd say over a 5-6 year period I had maybe 20-25 days off. Most of those coming from the last year I was in. Not including the one LOA I had.
"Everybody has a right to believe what they want to believe. But I don't believe that anybody has a right to trick anybody, to hurt anybody, to harm some body, for their own purposes." - Jason Beghe
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ex-somember

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Post Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:57 pm

Iknowtoomuch wrote:I got one LOA the entire time I was there. And it was a mess trying to get out of there. An exec in my org at the time told me I had better come back.
So much for Scientologists trusting people.


In the SO and actually all Orgs I think they try to make the Libs and LOA cycle so hard and tough and such an emotional roller coaster so you will never want to CSW again.

How many SO members after a few years give up on ever even submitting a Libs CSW.

Lots!

But they have good reason to refuse CSWs and make libs hard to get.

Because every approved CSW means a staff member is getting a taste of freedom outside, enjoying their day and then they start to have doubts.

I used to think how much better life would be at FSO if Libs and LOA were in on all staff. It would make life in the so much better.

But now I see that actually it would pull the place apart in blows.
Welcome out of the SO all of you.
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Iknowtoomuch

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Post Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:32 pm

ex-somember wrote:
Iknowtoomuch wrote:I got one LOA the entire time I was there. And it was a mess trying to get out of there. An exec in my org at the time told me I had better come back.
So much for Scientologists trusting people.


In the SO and actually all Orgs I think they try to make the Libs and LOA cycle so hard and tough and such an emotional roller coaster so you will never want to CSW again.

How many SO members after a few years give up on ever even submitting a Libs CSW.

Lots!

But they have good reason to refuse CSWs and make libs hard to get.

Because every approved CSW means a staff member is getting a taste of freedom outside, enjoying their day and then they start to have doubts.

I used to think how much better life would be at FSO if Libs and LOA were in on all staff. It would make life in the so much better.

But now I see that actually it would pull the place apart in blows.



That would make perfect sense.
Plus the fact that many people didn't come back from LOA's. Gee I wonder why. So it got tougher to take one.
If you treat people well they will want to come back. Every think of that!!!
"Everybody has a right to believe what they want to believe. But I don't believe that anybody has a right to trick anybody, to hurt anybody, to harm some body, for their own purposes." - Jason Beghe
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Sharone Stainforth

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Post Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:05 am

My first Libs day was both fun and a reality check.This was in North Africa shortly after joining the Royal Scotsman as it was then known, in 1967.

It was so hot, i had never felt heat like that before. We (my Dad and I, also one or two other SO members,don't remember who) found a man with a cart selling freshly made lemonade. We had to put tablets into it before we drank it. It was so good and icy cold in sharp contrast to the heat.

To me as a 10 year old, this was so like the bible stories i had heard at school back in England. My eyes darted everywhere, it was so alien to anything i had ever known before.The mule pulled carts loaded to near bursting,the poor donkeys who had so much on their backs, you could only see their heads, tail and hooves. Men and women dressed in robes, opposed to clothes. The women really caught my eye as that was all you could see their eyes, everything was covered from top to toe. The dusty roads, the pungent smells of spices and sewerage. The call to prayer in the mosques. It was a million miles away from the life i had known.

The reality check were the children, beggars on the streets.Skinny little kids with large dark haunted eyes. I was told never to give them money as i would be bombarded by hundreds of them. This upset me as these kids obviously needed something.I found it hard to ignore these little kids dressed in rags, i had never witnessed such poverty and suffering.

The last Libs day i had on the Apollo was in Corfu. A great day spent with my fellow CMO. We had eaten out and met up with some Greek boys around our age. They spoke very little English and we had a lot of fun trying to understand one another. We were late back to the ship by about half an hour. They(the Greek boys) even walked us back to the dock. After we got back we were questioned as to why we were late and also what we had been saying to the Greek boys. It was decided that not only were we a Liability for being late but we were also a breech to security for fraternizing with the locals who were not Scientologists.

I could not believe what i was hearing from the EO. Was he seriously nuts or what?Obviously not. My friend CMO and I were put in Liability and put to work in the hold of the ship.

At first we tried to make the best of a bad situation, laughing and joking at our punishment.Squealing at cobwebs and spiders. We were soon made to realise we were not here to have fun. We were in Liability. We were not to talk to any body that included each other. We had to chip rust from the sides of the ship. The stark reality hit home when we were not allowed to go back to our cabin to go to sleep, we had to sleep where we were in the hold,on the floor, with no mattress or blankets.We slept sitting up against some metal thing(not sure of name). We had one tilly lamp down there, so it was very dark, even in daytime. We lost all definition of night and day, I remember getting permission to go to the toilet and my eyes hurt because of the daylight. We were fed but it was very little and when we were let out one of the pains i remember was of severe hunger.

By then I was mentally numb.I didn't know how my friend felt because we never talked about it. I'm sure she must have felt much the same as me. I still cannot remember how long we were down in the hold. I only know it was a very frightening experience. My Father had gone away on a mission, I had no one other than my friend for support and companionship and suddenly because of our circumstances, I wasn't even sure I could trust that. We were 11 and 12 years old.250+ people on that ship, most of them adults and I didn't trust anyone. That is what fear does to you.

The only thing that kept me from totally loosing it was if i walked up the small ladder to look out of the hold and I could see Hana Eltringham at her desk, she always had a lovely smile. That smile kept me going.I trusted no one but Hanas' smile gave me the confidence to ask her about my Dad and if I could go and join him wherever he was.Fortunately she agreed to find out for me and set the ball in motion for me to be reunited with him. Unfortunately that never happened.

Then came the write up. I didn't understand. I didn't know what to write. I had to ask Hana Eltringham a couple of times before i understood what was expected of me. None of it made any sense. My friend seemed to know what to do and got away long before me. I can't remember what i wrote in the end but I know I was not comfortable with whatever it was. I just needed to get myself out of the situation I was in.

The writeup was followed by asking permission to join the group. There I was, this scared, tired, numb, filthy dirty, (I could smell myself, fear and dirt.)little kid who went up on deck to find people to sign my sheet. The decks were usually filled with people but for some reason it was earily quiet and no one was about. Was I worthy of rejoining the group?The third person I asked said "NO". For a kid who was already in the lowest depths of apathy that was a blow that knocked me sideways. I knew life would never be the same again. It would not be the first or last time that i was a degraded being.

Here I was on the sanest place on earth, the good ship Apollo, the place where "we were the elite". The place where we were saving Mankind by "clearing the planet", we would "come back" life time after life time, we were "Mankinds only hope". I didn't know how to swear back then. But now all I can say is "What a load of fucking bollocks". When I look back at what happened on the Apollo in the late 60s I still find it hard to believe that it all happened. I know it did because I was there. All these years later I am doing ok, but it has left deep scars, scars that do not disappear just because it happened a long time ago.

I cannot compare what happened to me to people that were in concentration camps in Nazi Germany but I can certainly see that there are/were similarities. This cannot ever happen again. The world must ensure this is never ever allowed to happen again.

I know there will be people who may read this, what I have written and be upset by what I write. In no way do I personally wish to upset anyone, but I will not ever again be silenced by Scientology and Its SO. What I have written is the truth and Scientology is accountable even though LRH is dead.

I never had another Libs day on the Apollo. Guess I must have been a really big security risk at the age of 11.

I have written about this before on ESMB but not in so much detail. A message to the friend who I shared a cabin with and the Liability experience- I do still regard you as a friend , however "funny stories" pale into insignificance compared to the life times trauma dealt by Scientologys disconnection policy and LRHs conduct aboard the Apollo.
the man who"wanted" to rule the world was a science fiction writer, who lived out his fantasies in real life.Some body some day will say this is illegal. It won't come soon enough.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WzE9Fzbrx3w
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LronIsgonE_Snap

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Post Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:06 am

Sharon, as far as I'm concerned, you and your friend were 11 and 12 year-old torture victims after your Libs day in Corfu. :shock: If someone who reads what you wrote is upset about it, because it casts LRH and the early SO days in a bad light, then they really need to re-examine their own beliefs.
Enjoy your life today,
For time is fleeting.
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ex-somember

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Post Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:29 am

Without regular libs throughout my period of time I would have strangled my seniors. I just had to get out every fortnight.

look at the 'way' you have to CSW for a Libs day.

It had to be approved through your senior, the dept and div seniors, then up the line to the Captain. Anyone could say 'no'.

Sometimes MMAs had to approve libs CSWs and got themselves placed on your command channel. So there are many guys on the line who can say no!

Actually all these guys want to say No! Well, because they don't get libs, they don't want you less productive by having a day off. Who will work for you that day? Got a replacement :) sometimes that was demanded.

On Thursday before 2.00 you have to structure it so your upstat, you submit the Libs CSW in the comm center Thursday night before staff meeting.

You work all day Friday wishing, dreaming, hoping. ( most Fridays my thetan was already on libs.. )

Then how do you get your approval CSW?

You have to produce on post until Graduation then you must attend that...

So you get back to your comm tray and see if approved or not. If not? Too late to do anything..

Not so, I just took the day off and be damned the consequences.

All they could do is place me in Ethics Department with the other DB SO staff currently in there. I'd stay up to a week even after they wanted to push me back on post.

Actually my favorite times were in ISO or the Coachman ethics space. This is when I had a ball and the other staff really had a good chat. We could talk in disenfranchised terms. Joke and degrade, HE&R, muck around, play with pens, tell each other their stories, arm wrestle etc etc.

The Org is set up so that so many people are forced against each other so no real friends are made on post. Its in ISO, on Libs, working on conditions in the ethics space etc that is where life was fun. No wonder I was so out-ethics while there :)

Crazy Days...
Welcome out of the SO all of you.
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doubleVee

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Post Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:19 am

I've been avoiding answering this, because I could go on and on and on.

Basically it boils down to lots of time biting nails waiting to see if a libs csw is approved, and lots of disapprovals or "not signed yet" by Sunday morning.

I was lucky in one respect -- my parents gave lots of money to the org and nobody really wanted to piss them off. So I did get off on Sunday once in a while. Most of the time if my parents complained I went home on CSP time (Sunday morning for 1-3 hours). That is, after my senior wasn't my roommate anymore.

There was a huge incident after I had been in for about 8 months. I was supposed to get off for 2 weeks to go to Hawaii with my family for a wedding, etc. This had been planned before I even joined. Of course I was told it would be no problem. I was also supposed to get time to go home and go through my personal belongings, box them up or get rid of them, like I was supposed to do before I joined in the first place. I was told by the recruiters (surprise!) that I should join before doing that so I was in before thursday at 2. (I never did get to go take care of my stuff, ever. My mom just threw everything away.) Obviously there was no way I was being let go for 2 weeks. For one thing, the org wasn't doing well, and I was "in HCO and therefore vital" yadda yadda yadda.

When I called my mom and told her I couldn't go, she flipped out. My parents had bought the plane tickets before I joined the SO in the first place, they were non-refundable, my non-Scilon relatives were going to be really upset and create a PR flap, etc. She said she didn't want me in the SO in the first place, and if she had to drag me kicking and screaming to the airport, she would. I was pretty scared. For one thing, the last thing I wanted was to be under her control again. Also, I was terrified of the RPF and the trouble I would get in for blowing. (Little did I know minors were safe from the RPF.) Mom showed up in the lobby and yelled at me some more. I was only 16 and I was just crying in frustration. I told her I would go "deal with it" and pack.

I went to the only person I felt comfortable talking to, a girl in HCO WUS. I told her the whole story and she went to my CO's berthing with me. I was to freaked out to talk to him and she told him what was going on. He told me I had 7 days. I won't forget how haggard he looked, he was under a lot of pressure and also dealing with no sleep, just like the rest of us. It made an impression on me. For some reason, I just never wanted to let him down, even as I was very scared of him. He was a big authority figure to me. Anyway I ran off and left with my parents and went to Hawaii. It was a weird trip, suddenly seeing my family and this really ritzy environment that had been normal to me before. My brother had joined at FSO by then, he was fresh off the EPF, and we both were pretty weirded out. We spent a lot of time eating and sleeping. That's a different story, tho. I went back to PAC early (mom was still pissed, I don't know why I guess she just didn't like me being out of her control).

After that incident, I rarely got off for a Libs day. Considering the amount of effort it took to get ONE day off, I don't think I even asked for more, ever. Even when I got married it was in a 1 day trip to Las Vegas and back. When I was at ASHO, which was for most of my career, we were constantly "in a State of Emergency" and on rice and beans, and then you are not allowed off even if your personal stats are up. I was lucky to get home at night and lived on 2-3 hours of sleep for most of the time. I would sneak out at CSP time or at night and just walk, all over Hollywood, and that was the only way I could decompress or chill out at all.
Somebody has to speak for these people.... no more running. I aim to misbehave.... If you can't do something smart, do something right. (Serenity)
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Sharone Stainforth

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Post Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:58 pm

Sharon, as far as I'm concerned, you and your friend were 11 and 12 year-old torture victims after your Libs day in Corfu. Shocked If someone who reads what you wrote is upset about it, because it casts LRH and the early SO days in a bad light, then they really need to re-examine their own beliefs.

This is hard for me to talk about.

What happened to me and my friend should never have happened. It did. 250 adults stood by and let it happen, did nothing to stop it. They were LRHs rules, and no one thought to question this? I did not understand why, hell I still do not understand why. Iv'e read most of the brainwashing manual, i have read about hypnotism and try as i might I still cannot understand why?

I am a Mother of two children and I cannot for the life of me imagine my children having gone through what My friend and myself went through.Knowing how I am, was even then as a child I cannot believe I would have stood by and let a child of mine go through that.

When I said I did not wish to upset anyone , I mean just that. I have read accounts of some of the people that were on that ship with me and I have gotten extremely upset by what I have read and heard. Some of these people are still alive and some of them are now dead and most if not all have suffered immeasurably through what they have been through.

I know that most of these people were good people in 1967.

How does one justify this, how does one explain this? I can't.

Whilst writing this I am listening for about the third time to Scientology- class viii-xenu tape, from Oct 3rd 67 on board the Apollo.

The first time I listened to this I had to switch it off it was driving me crazy. LRHs voice drives me crazy. I am not 100% sure but at least 98% sure I was outside on duty while he gave a lecture like this. On an upper deck, near a white bulk head. Occasionally looking through the porthole, I could only conclude then at the age of 11 that he was talking rubbish. I could not understand what the hell he was on about. I could not understand why the hell these people were so in AWE of him. I still do not understand why these people were in AWE of him.

At early morning muster this same man ordered people thrown over the side of the ship.Day after day we all had to stand by and watch this while the Commadore on occasions video recorded and smiled, smiled for crying out loud.

Every day people were in lower conditions. Chipping paint, chip, chip, chipping away.Grey rags round their arms, black marks on their faces. Locked up. No one allowed to talk to them, degraded beings.All the while certain Officers stood around looking in disdain at these people.

This man L. Ron Hubbard gave people traumas, all those engrams he talked about, all those missed withholds people supposedly had were a result of all the degradation that Hubbard subjected these people to. In my mind he was a madman, he sure as hell was not a messiah.

Sorry, gone way off topic. Or have I?

Liberty is not for a day, it should be for life.
the man who"wanted" to rule the world was a science fiction writer, who lived out his fantasies in real life.Some body some day will say this is illegal. It won't come soon enough.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WzE9Fzbrx3w
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mrtampa

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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:30 pm

I got LOA after 8 yrs for a week (two of that was spent to travel as I am from Europe)!! I got libs once in every two months.

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