Who cares about wacky OTIII

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Walker.

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Post Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:00 pm

Who cares about wacky OTIII

Hello I am new to this site and also an Ex-Scifag. This may seem harsh and also hard to understand for both Scientologists and people who have recently gotten out, but what is written in OTIII isn't really "beliefs." A belief is when you carry something in your heart or mind that tells you that one day something that you have faith in will come to light. OTIII is just a bunch of pretentious pseudo-psychobabble, and yet another one of LRH's philosophical stories laced gratuitously with his anti-government rhetoric as well as Sci-Fi unoriginal garbage. What is in those texts isn't as much beliefs or anything sacred, as much as it is just something that no one would believe if they werent already totally brainwashed. While it is good to respect people's beliefs, there's a difference between respecting beliefs and propagating a useless taboo.
On this site when we hide OTIII materials from Scieno's eyes we are just acting like them, and acting like OTIII is sacred. So let's say that OTIII was sacred, or even that it was respectable that Scientologist's thought it was. Let's say that when we were hiding OTIII from Scieno's eyes that what we were doing was "respecting their beliefs." Even then, when do other religions ever hide their most sacred texts from their believers eyes? They don't. Hiding OTIII materials from Scientologists is a control mechanism. If you turn it into a taboo then no one can talk about it, ie start a dialogue about how ridiculous it is. I don't think we should participate in that. What do you guys think?
Look, i know you're worried about scaring away Scientoligists, but if they see the OTIII materials and realize its not really going to kill them with Pneumonia, then that will really get them thinking! Thinking that maybe Scientology lies! This is a freedom of information site and we dont need to hide any kind of information. We are us, not them. And we don't need to act like them.
I'm open to debate, agreement, new insights, whatever.
And this just feels like spinning plates
Our bodies floating down the muddy river
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Tru2form

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Post Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:47 am

Well, I do see where you're coming from. I'm not really worried about scaring Scientologists off - the fact that we're talking about this kind of stuff at all usually freaks Scientologists out plenty.

What we're trying to do is *not* be like Scientology by respecting the opinions and thoughts of others, and by not assuming that our way is the absolutely right way, while at the same time leaving the door open for people who are just starting to question. Reading OTIII wasn't the first step I took out the door, it was one of the last steps, and jamming our thoughts or opinions down someone's throat when we know they won't appreciate it isn't a kind thing to do.

There are plenty of anti-Scientology sites out there - every other one of them, in fact - where you can talk about OTIII in any forum and in any context. We're not saying that's bad, we're just saying that there have to be, uh, gradients out there. We didn't put up ESK so it could be exactly like everything else on the net. This is a geared-towards-ex-kids support group, and in order to provide support, we need to be open to people in all different situations, and in all different frames of mind.

It's very easy to be on this side of the line and say, "What's the been fuckin' deal? Stop being so scared of something so ridiculous." You and I, and most people here, know the OTIII materials really aren't that big of a deal. It's just a stupid story. But when you're in the middle of trees, it's very hard to see the forest. I'm not interested in kicking people's heads in with my opinions until they agree with me.

I really do feel that the way we're doing what we're doing is working. If you could see my email inbox, I think you might agree. There are a lot of people on ESK that don't post or hang out on other sites, because they're not ready to look at OTIII material. When they're ready, they'll look for themselves.
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Walker.

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Post Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:54 pm

That's an intelligent and well thought out response. And it's interesting that you guys arent worried about scaring Scienos off, i thought you were.
You're right about the OTIII stuff being scattered across the intarwebs, and i don't like how ex-scienos make a mockery of it all the time and make fun of Scientologists for believing it. To each his own. I'm sure that a lot of Scientologists wanting to get out are appreciative of the fact that you conceal OTIII material. However, it's not about making them agree with us as much as it is that this site is working by their own taboo. Sure, people might be appreciative that you conceal it, but this might be the camel's nose under the tent. If too many people on the outside start respecting the faux sacredness of OTIII then people wanting to get out will feel pressured by the idea that "maybe OTII is sacred." And you and i know how Scienos think, especially the kids. If they feel that OTIII is sacred or worth covering up, then they WILL start to believe that they are bad people for getting out of Scientology and might stay in. There are a multitude of things i am concerned about in regards to this issue. I wouldnt say I'm saying the style of it is wrong, I'm saying that there needs to be an open mind to reconsidering perhaps certain aspects of it.
And this just feels like spinning plates
Our bodies floating down the muddy river
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doubleVee

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Post Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:11 pm

Just a note, which may or may not be relevant: When I first started hearing about stuff that was supposedly confidential (namely, Xenu and something about blowing up a volcano) I was not remotely interested and blew it off as "strange". This was before I decided I was not a Scientologist anymore.

Later my mom started interrogating me about my outside activities and freaking out about what I might be reading on the net. (Actually this was even before ESK existed.) She started asking me if I had read about Xenu and I told her this -- that I had no idea if what people were claiming were OT III materials were actually them, were the complete level, or were totally made up. I said if the rumors had any truth to them at all (which I figured they probably did just because of the commonness of the name Xenu popping up) that they probably didn't have the whole story and I would not assume that OT III was "crazy" or not based on internet rumors. I still think that was the right point of view (at the time).

Later I decided that I wanted nothing to do with Scientology. I also decided that OT III was crap. But it is kind of irrelevant to my problems with Scientology. I really don't care one way or the other about it. My reasons for leaving were totally unrelated to that. Someone once said that OT III materials are better for scaring away non-Scientologists, not for getting through to kids who already are. I think that's right.
Somebody has to speak for these people.... no more running. I aim to misbehave.... If you can't do something smart, do something right. (Serenity)
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Tru2form

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Post Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:32 am

Thanks, I try. ;)

Well, I do definitely see your point. I thought long and hard before partitioning the OTIII stuff. Not really because it's sacred, but because I don't want people who are starting to question to reject everything right away because they don't want to see anything about the "Wall of Fire". Heh.

The results may be a bit like what you're talking about - that it sanctifies OTIII more than OTIII deserves. I feel that's probably a necessary byproduct of the way the site is run. But, I hope it does end up coming across that we're not doing that because OTIII is a secret that deserves to be kept, but because we understand where people who are just starting to leave are coming from, ya know? It's such a big deal inside of Scientology, that I feel we can't expect people to just throw off all taboos right away. But in my limited experience, everyone who starts to question even a little is gonna end up looking at those materials anyway, and in the end I hope they'll respect us for not making them look when they, you know, thought they were gonna die if they read them.

Now, everything I'm saying is all very nice in theory. In practice and in actuality, I have to come to terms with the fact that it doesn't matter if OTIII is even mentioned on this site - it's an anti-Scientology site, for the most part, and therefore the act of reading any of it or participating in it will get a Scientologist in just as much trouble as looking at OTIII materials. I understand that it's a bit of a futile gesture - imagine someone going in for an ethics handling and telling the EO: "Yeah, it was an anti-Scientology site, but I didn't read the OTIII materials, so it's OK!" I don't think that would work very well. However, getting out of Scientology is hard enough mentally without forcing people to be afraid they're gonna die if they read our site, because it's full of OTIII materials.

Is the "OTIII that we don't talk about except in these forums" the pink elephant in the room? Sure is! But the fact that a Scientologist is spending time on this site at all means they're at least curious.

I either get two kinds of emails from Scientologists: 1) I knew you when you / Astra / Jenna when you were a kid, and I hated your guts, you awful, downtone, out-ARC, BIGOT! or 2) Er... I don't agree with what you say necessarily. Ok, maybe I do a little, but I don't think, er, ah, I dunno... er...

The first type of email I ignore, or post for fun. The second type I usually respond to with, "Hey, come join the forums! Ya don't have to see anything about OTIII!" There are lotsa "I just got out" people around here as a result of those email conversations, and many more who are just taking baby steps on the long mental road to wogdom.

We're not afraid of scaring off Scientologists, but at the same time we're not interested in alienating those people. There are sososososo many folks on these boards and other boards that left Scientology and realized that something was rotten in Denmark because we so-called "SPs" were nice and respectful to them on some forum or other, and that means a lot to me. If we all have to dance around a little about OTIII for someone else's long-term benefit, so be it.

In any case, I think Xenu.net, ESMB and the other forums have plenty of Xenu to go around. ;)

Walker. wrote:That's an intelligent and well thought out response. And it's interesting that you guys arent worried about scaring Scienos off, i thought you were.
You're right about the OTIII stuff being scattered across the intarwebs, and i don't like how ex-scienos make a mockery of it all the time and make fun of Scientologists for believing it. To each his own. I'm sure that a lot of Scientologists wanting to get out are appreciative of the fact that you conceal OTIII material. However, it's not about making them agree with us as much as it is that this site is working by their own taboo. Sure, people might be appreciative that you conceal it, but this might be the camel's nose under the tent. If too many people on the outside start respecting the faux sacredness of OTIII then people wanting to get out will feel pressured by the idea that "maybe OTII is sacred." And you and i know how Scienos think, especially the kids. If they feel that OTIII is sacred or worth covering up, then they WILL start to believe that they are bad people for getting out of Scientology and might stay in. There are a multitude of things i am concerned about in regards to this issue. I wouldnt say I'm saying the style of it is wrong, I'm saying that there needs to be an open mind to reconsidering perhaps certain aspects of it.
:roll:
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Walker.

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Post Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:46 am

I have decided that you are correct. Being afraid of OTIII is just as bad as parading it around on the net to make a mockery of Scifags. I respect your decision.
And this just feels like spinning plates
Our bodies floating down the muddy river
-Radiohead
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Tru2form

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Post Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:53 am

Jesus Christ, man, I don't think that's ever happened on an internet forum before, in the whole history of internet forums. Ever.

I don't know what to say. It makes me wanna be like, "No, YOU'RE right." :D
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Walker.

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Post Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:59 am

Maybe i am right? So what if i am? It's not like being right is that bad or anything. Hey, maybe YOU'RE right? Ever think of that? Didn't fucking think so.
And this just feels like spinning plates
Our bodies floating down the muddy river
-Radiohead
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Iknowtoomuch

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Post Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:32 am

You're both wrong and I'm right. :lol:

Wait, I haven't posted anything yet...damn! Can't let this lovefest go on like this. Agreement and all. :lol:
"Everybody has a right to believe what they want to believe. But I don't believe that anybody has a right to trick anybody, to hurt anybody, to harm some body, for their own purposes." - Jason Beghe
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doubleVee

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Post Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:31 am

[mythbuster]

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

[/mythbuster]
Somebody has to speak for these people.... no more running. I aim to misbehave.... If you can't do something smart, do something right. (Serenity)
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Walker.

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Post Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:46 am

Through an implant in my ear, the lord Xenu tells me that I am right and that you are all wrong. Which makes me teh epic win of this thred.
And this just feels like spinning plates
Our bodies floating down the muddy river
-Radiohead
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Iknowtoomuch

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Post Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:24 am

doubleVee wrote:[mythbuster]

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

[/mythbuster]


LMAO...love that show.

You win Walker. 8)
"Everybody has a right to believe what they want to believe. But I don't believe that anybody has a right to trick anybody, to hurt anybody, to harm some body, for their own purposes." - Jason Beghe
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Walker.

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Post Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:46 pm

Good, because i wanted the win so badly.
And this just feels like spinning plates
Our bodies floating down the muddy river
-Radiohead
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James McGuigan

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Post Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:20 am

As a techie, philosopher and researcher, I usually look at solutions to problems and try to break them down into the underlying principals and reasonings behind the methodologies. To try and learn things from first principals so that if forgot the answer, then I could work it out again from scratch. It may not be exactly the same answer, but would solve the same problem.

Now just suppose for a moment that the whole wall of fire, Xenu implants where true. If Hubbard starting from scratch, as just another human, managed to figure it out, the question you should be asking is not what answers did he find, but rather what methodology did he do differently compared to everybody else that allowed him to solve the problem. Why shouldn't I, as just another human being starting from scratch, also be able to figure it all out on my own as well.

Anyway, as a geek I may in fact have more fun in re-inventing the wheel than actually using it once I have built it.
Freedom is a choice. Choose to be yourself, choose to speak your truth and do so with compassion. And above all else, choose to be not afraid. If I can't dance, its not my revolution.
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doubleVee

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Post Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:16 pm

James McGuigan wrote:Anyway, as a geek I may in fact have more fun in re-inventing the wheel than actually using it once I have built it.


:lol:
Somebody has to speak for these people.... no more running. I aim to misbehave.... If you can't do something smart, do something right. (Serenity)
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Terril park

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Post Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:40 pm

Tru2form wrote:Thanks, I try. ;)

Well, I do definitely see your point. I thought long and hard before partitioning the OTIII stuff. Not really because it's sacred, but because I don't want people who are starting to question to reject everything right away because they don't want to see anything about the "Wall of Fire". Heh.


I'd say that was a good call. Even I in early days on the net was a bit reluctant to look at OT 3. Not from the point of possible danger, but from the
viewpoint that I still loved the tech. I rapidly realised I had long decided not to go back to COS so it didn't matter. Read the stuff, later did OT 2&3 to great results despite not believing in the " xenu" story.

It is the case that a few who are exposed to this level prematurely can have a bad reaction. The vast majority don't. It does deal with universal
issues.

It is also true that many will not go where OT 3 is discussed. Those who wish to read and discuss have as you say plenty of places to go.
http://www.freewebs .com/techoutside thecofs/
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Walker.

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Post Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:40 pm

Terril park wrote:It is the case that a few who are exposed to this level prematurely can have a bad reaction.


Could you back that up please?
And this just feels like spinning plates
Our bodies floating down the muddy river
-Radiohead
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Orderous

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Post Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:54 pm

Walker. wrote:
Terril park wrote:It is the case that a few who are exposed to this level prematurely can have a bad reaction.


Could you back that up please?


I can, probarbly better than him even;

There are two main bad reactions. The first is paranoid delusions in scientology fanatics causing placebo reactions. The second is the breath crushing laughter for everyone else.
The most important thing to learn about Life, the Universe, and Everything, is firstly; the answer is 42, and secondly; how utterly ridiculous it truly is
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Terril park

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Post Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:58 pm

Orderous wrote:
Walker. wrote:
Terril park wrote:It is the case that a few who are exposed to this level prematurely can have a bad reaction.


Could you back that up please?


I can, probarbly better than him even;

There are two main bad reactions. The first is paranoid delusions in scientology fanatics causing placebo reactions. The second is the breath crushing laughter for everyone else.


This may be so for some.

I've heard from those of great experience who deliver and audit upper levels in the FZ that bad reactions can occur.

I know two people personally who had bad reactions. One needed surgery, but in fact also had great gains just reading the material without running it.
A personal friend of long standing. The other has to this date not recovered
his equinamity, and I'm not sure how much he ever had.

If for a moment one takes a viewpoint divorced from scn, the idea of entities of one sort or another is universal. Tribal people, those in the third world, not being pejoritive, even if they are christian, grew up with these ideas, and are comfortable with them.

Those in the first world, new to these ideas, and finding them very "important " have their stable datums shaken mightily. They find that "ghosts" are "real " and who knows what that may restimulate.

So orderous, you wish to explain why such phenomena are impossible? If
you are a christian you are excused that task. You know Jesus trained his disciples as excorsists.
http://www.freewebs .com/techoutside thecofs/
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Terril park

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Post Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:58 pm

Orderous wrote:
Walker. wrote:
Terril park wrote:It is the case that a few who are exposed to this level prematurely can have a bad reaction.


Could you back that up please?


I can, probarbly better than him even;

There are two main bad reactions. The first is paranoid delusions in scientology fanatics causing placebo reactions. The second is the breath crushing laughter for everyone else.


This may be so for some.

I've heard from those of great experience who deliver and audit upper levels in the FZ that bad reactions can occur.

I know two people personally who had bad reactions. One needed surgery, but in fact also had great gains just reading the material without running it.
A personal friend of long standing. The other has to this date not recovered
his equinamity, and I'm not sure how much he ever had.

If for a moment one takes a viewpoint divorced from scn, the idea of entities of one sort or another is universal. Tribal people, those in the third world, not being pejoritive, even if they are christian, grew up with these ideas, and are comfortable with them.

Those in the first world, new to these ideas, and finding them very "important " have their stable datums shaken mightily. They find that "ghosts" are "real " and who knows what that may restimulate.

So orderous, you wish to explain why such phenomena are impossible? If
you are a christian you are excused that task. You know Jesus trained his disciples as excorsists.
http://www.freewebs .com/techoutside thecofs/
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