What's your opinion on TRs?

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RLSteve

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Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:57 am

What's your opinion on TRs?

You know, when I was a kid, I thought TRs were so fun, well, at least TR 0 BB and TR 3 and 4, where there was bullbaiting involved.

But having been in Scientology, we've all spent a long time doing TRs, especially TR 0.

I can see how OT TR 0 is basically just like meditation. Lots of people benefit from meditation.

But TR 0? Who here feels that TR 0 helped them?

I mentioned in another thread, after leaving Scientology, and attending different acting classes and self-empowerment seminars, there would be exercises similar to TR 0 where you'd have to sit/stand in front of another person and connect with them.

I remember when I did the Advanced Course in Landmark, we did this exercise. And this was often a very emotional exercise for some people. I saw a few people even break down crying during this. But when I did this exercise, I thought, "Oh, this is just like TR 0, I'm good at this, I used to do this a lot."

But afterwards, people commented to me that I had no emotion, they felt no connection with me, like they were just looking at a mannequin.

In present time, I often go to an actor's emotional workshop at my acting studio on Saturdays. There are exercises where we have to stand/sit in front of each other and just really let everything show. Other people can do this pretty easily, but it is something I struggle with, and I wonder if years of doing TR 0 kind of desensitized me.

Remember, the purpose of TRs was to make good auditors.

I have to say, in almost every auditing session I had, there was always something really artificial about my auditors whenever they gave a command and an acknowledgement, compared to when I was just talking to them outside of session and they were just being themselves.

Personally, I think TR 0 might benefit people more if the instructions were to "be there and connect" instead of just "be there."
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Grundy

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Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:28 am

I don't know. I fealt a lot of benefit from TRs. TR 0 was a little overkill. Hours and HOURS and HOURS lol

I first did TR0 when I was young. My parents had us do this when I was 5 or 6. It was about learning to confront.

Three terms that we were taught were: confront, covert hostility and obnosis.

I do think there was value to this.

I loved upper indoc TRs as well.

There are a lot of goofy things in scientology. But some of it was fun anyway.
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Holden Caulfield

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Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:48 am

Parents having their children of five, six doing TRs is outright nuts! My parents had me and my brothers and sister do this, and there was probably nothing else that could have cemented out disinterest in Scientology more.

Sure, bullbaiting was fun, but sitting staring at each other for hours on end when you're a little kid and want to go play is just insane.

I've exerienced no benefits from TRs although I've done the Comm course probably 4 or 5 times in total and spent hundreds of hours doing TRs.
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Tru2form

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Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:07 am

TRs? Kinda liked them, kinda hated them.

I really didn't like being in a room with a bunch of other people doing bull baiting. I remember being on TR0 (for those of you who don't know, that's just when you and your study partner sit across from each other in a chair and stare at each other without moving) in the courseroom with my twin when we were both about 13.

Everyone in the room was doing a different TR, and the guys next to us were doing bull baiting, and the bull baiter was screaming, "I'm a HUGE syrup covered PENIS!!! And you're a VAGINA!", etc, which went on for about 3 hours. Made me really uncomfortable, but I was supposed to just keep my TRs in and not blush.

Also, no matter what, I couldn't help the fact that I would start seeing things. When you don't blink for like, 2 hours, your vision starts to go all weird. But, you know, you tell the sup your vision went yellow or whatever and they just say, "That means you're not really confronting. You haven't passed the drill." I couldn't help it, though. I did a TRs course one summer and it would go on for weeks on end, just staring at each other.

I got through the TRs when I was a kid by pretending that I was a super-spy, and that I was in training not to crack under torture and lie detection.
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RLSteve

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Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:54 am

Tru2form wrote:Everyone in the room was doing a different TR, and the guys next to us were doing bull baiting, and the bull baiter was screaming, "I'm a HUGE syrup covered PENIS!!! And you're a VAGINA!", etc, which went on for about 3 hours. Made me really uncomfortable, but I was supposed to just keep my TRs in and not blush.


I remember one girl at Delphi talking about how one time her brother was doing TRs (I think at Flag) and his twin, a woman, would bullbait him by flashing her breasts at him (her brother was a minor).

I've also heard a weird story about one guy who bullbaited a woman by pulling out his penis and masturbating until he ejaculated.

I remember when I was doing a TR course at Delphi, my twin and I would be doing TR 0 BB in the Practical Room, and my twin would bullbait me by making obscene sexual comments about other students in the room. I had the hardest time not cracking up.

And once, to bullbait him, when we were sitting near one of the Clay Tables, I grabbed one of the vaseline dispensers and started pouring vaseline on his face. However, it wasn't as funny as I thought it would be.
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Tru2form

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Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:29 pm

Jesus. Yeah, one of the problems the supervisors had was that ElRon never laid out any stipulations for what couldn't be done during TR 0 BB. Technically, it's OK to reach over and grab someone's breasts/penis whatever. And if the supervisor did object, the student would be like, "Why? Where in the policies does it say that's not OK?" It doesn't. Guys that bullbaited me used to run their hands up my leg (I was about 13) and say things like, "c'mon baby, why don't you come over to my place?"

And you just have to sit there and not blink. As a 13 year old, it was really hard not to get uncomfortable, or laugh, or slap their hand or whatever.

I actually asked my supervisor one time, "so... they could do anything? They could touch me anywhere?"

And the sup didn't know how to answer, because nowhere in the policy letters does it say "no touching". If the supervisor said "No", it was verbal tech. And if they said "yes", it was verbal tech. So they just made me re-read the bulliten again, which of course didn't answer the f-ing question, because the answer wasn't in there.
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Clickman

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Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:48 pm

Good points Kendra.

TR's are supposed to make you NOT react to such sexual bull baiting and touching.

However in normal everyday society, the CORRECT RESPONSE would be to slap the person or move away from them. Of if they told a joke, to laugh at the joke.

Instead, we were taught to be zombie's and not react the way a normal person would react. It took me some time to get out of this mode of thinking after leaving.

Another mechanism of control in my opinion.
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Grundy

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Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:57 pm

Tru2form wrote:Jesus. Yeah, one of the problems the supervisors had was that ElRon never laid out any stipulations for what couldn't be done during TR 0 BB. Technically, it's OK to reach over and grab someone's breasts/penis whatever. And if the supervisor did object, the student would be like, "Why? Where in the policies does it say that's not OK?" It doesn't. Guys that bullbaited me used to run their hands up my leg (I was about 13) and say things like, "c'mon baby, why don't you come over to my place?"

And you just have to sit there and not blink. As a 13 year old, it was really hard not to get uncomfortable, or laugh, or slap their hand or whatever.

I actually asked my supervisor one time, "so... they could do anything? They could touch me anywhere?"

And the sup didn't know how to answer, because nowhere in the policy letters does it say "no touching". If the supervisor said "No", it was verbal tech. And if they said "yes", it was verbal tech. So they just made me re-read the bulliten again, which of course didn't answer the f-ing question, because the answer wasn't in there.


Actually, at least toward the end of my involvement, such things were considered improper because it was completely unreal. This is because in a real auditing session an auditor would be expected to react, if only to get a PC under control.

So there was a "no touching" thing going on.
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bushkaGND

Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:59 pm

TRs

Personally, I LOVED doing OT TRO (eyes closed) when I was getting 4-5 hours of sleep a night in the Sea Org.

I could finally catch up on some Zzzzz's. HA HA, J/K!
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Holden Caulfield

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Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:29 pm

When I last did TRs at an org not too many years ago there was a "no touching" policy in effect. However, this was the STCC and not one of the more advanced courses.

I thinks it's largely due to TR 0 BB that I'm very difficult to offend. That's good in one way, on the other it has sometimes made me come across as really strange when people have offended me in front of others and I've just stood there taking it.
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Anonymuzs

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Post Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:57 pm

Never having gone through any TR's, but having watched several hours of such routines, I can honestly say they scare the hell out of me.

This comes from a good understanding of the human mind, what it can handle, and what it does when it encounters something that it can't handle. As much as I hate saying the word, each TR I watched was textbook brainwashing. It's allready been explained quite well in other places, but I'll post a tl;dr again for those that might have never seen it.

Basically, the repetitiveness and absurdity of some of the commands (do birds fly?) over time will put you into a very lucid, suggestible state. This isn't even a conscious thing anyone would notice, it's a subconscious "defense" the brain puts up so you can deal with that kind of BS without wanting to tear your hair out.

There are documents out there detailing exactly how it's done, what mechanisms are triggered and all that, so I won't go into too much detail, but every TR I saw, to me, was nothing but breaking people in so they could later be pushed around and taken advantage of.

Not to say some of these won't make you a stronger person. Lucid state or not, when you do weeks/months/years being yelled at and not being allowed to move a muscle, you learn the arts of patience and are probably masters at keeping your cool. They will also help those who are bad public speakers, giving them more confidence to speak in front of others.

So while there are certain things that I see people can gain from such TR's, knowing how the human mind generally works, whenever I see them all my mind tells me is "danger, danger".
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Xenuphobe

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Post Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:46 am

Confusion Induction

It's funny; I've been studying $cn forever. But it wasn't until grad school when I started studying and practicing CBT & hypnotherapy that a lot of Scientology "tech" suddenly made sense.

The absurd and bizarre TR questions are known in the psychotherapy world as a form of hypnotic induction called the "confusion technique." Erickson was on of the earlier founding fathers of modern hypnotherapy that elucidated on this idea, and suggested basically all hypnotic induction uses/requires some sort/degree of confusion. This is broadly accepted as correct, but there are definitely some techniques that use confusion more than others.

There are more detailed accounts of how this works, as well as instruction in method, but here is a decent example. Notice the extreme similarity between the birds/fish questions and the induction questions presented here:

Let's consider the covert messages contained in the early learning set induction to which the recipient could respond. The overall injunction, `Go into a trance!' is presented nonverbally. Erickson offered this injunction by changing the locus and tone of his voice. When speaking to the ¯oor in a `hypnotic' style, Erickson indicated, `The time for trance is now!' The allusion to the difficulty in learning to write is a parallel communication in which the patient could associate the difficulty of learning to write with perceived difficulty in achieving trance. At one time, learning to write was difficult; now it is second nature. In parallel, the same can be true of trance.

Questioning whether the child dotted the `t' or crossed the `i' can confuse the patient. Confusion is part of every hypnosis induction (Haley, 1963), and is used to depotentiate conscious sets (Erickson & Rossi, 1979).

When Erickson queried, `How many bumps are there in an ``n'' and an ``m''?' he elegantly changed the injunction from `Remember!' to `Be absorbed in memory!'

This was accomplished by the subtle shift in tense from past to present. Initially, he talked about the past, for example `It was a difficult task' and ` Did you dot the ``t'' . . .?' Abruptly, he began speaking in the present, `How many bumps are there . . .?' as if the patient were reliving the childhood learning process. Subsequent injunctions covertly remind the patient that hypnotic learning can be gradual but permanent in a manner similar to learning to write. The patient is also encouraged to develop visual images. Next, Erickson rati®ed the occurrence of physiological changes, thereby confirming the patient's ability to experience trance and hypnotic effects. Ratification is the process of reflecting back in simple declarative sentences the changes that occur as the patient becomes absorbed in the induction, for example, `While I've been talking to you your pulse rate has changed . . .' The injunction to the patient is `You're responding!,' `You're responding correctly!,' `You are demonstrating hyp-
notic patterns!'

Please note that the above injunctions are deliberately written with exclamation points rather than as statements or questions. By their very nature, injunctions are subtle imperatives. The deliberate use of injunctions parallels the patient complaint, because patients customarily tell their stories to therapists with both overt and covert exclamation points, for example `I am depressed! Relieve my problem! I am helpless!' By communicating with imperatives through indirect injunctions,
the therapist fights fire with fire. A primary injunction that should be communicated to all patients is, `You can find within the resource you need to change or cope!'


(Burrows, Stanley & Bloom, International Handbook of Clinical Hypnosis, 2001, p. 87-88).
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ChaoticPsychotic

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Post Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:51 am

:?:
Last edited by ChaoticPsychotic on Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grundy

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Post Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:21 am

Well, if that isn't some of the worst out-tech I've ever seen.

TR OBB isn't supposed to be used to handle upsets. An L1C is supposed to be used. A locational. Something.

TROBB is supposed to be a training tool.

THAT was just CRAP!
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Xenuphobe

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Post Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:43 am

ChaoticPsychotic wrote:They taunted and teased me saying "You're mom's dying" or "Your mom's gonna die" and even "Your mom's dead". I was supposed to just sit there and take it unflinchingly. I couldn't handle it and started bawling my eyes out. Which of course just got me into trouble. I eventually got sent back to do OT TR 0 all over again.

The more I post and mull things over in my head, the more I realize how abusive it really all was. :cry:

This is why they have to be stopped. I cannot imagine any more people or children having to endure this sort of mental torture.


I am really sorry to hear you had to go through that. I can't even begin to imagine what that would be like.

You hit the nail on the head, incidentally. In this case, to the extent that the TR could have induced any sort of waking trance state, the entire purpose (or effect, at least) was unadulterated psychological torture. That is precisely--really, to the letter--one of the same grotesqueries used on the inmates at Guantanamo, albeit with more use of overt threats at Gitmo. Regardless of the intent, the effect of what you just described is to induce a complete psychological breakdown, normally accompanied by some sort of age-regressive state on the part of the subject in an effort to cope with the trauma. It goes without saying, but no one should ever have to suffer that experience.

I only ask out of concern, and please feel free to respond privately or not at all, but is any of this something you have spoken to a talk-therapist about? Experiences like that can be incredibly difficult to overcome on one's own, no matter how strong the person may be otherwise. That being said, the fact that you're here right now and speaking out about it, let alone so committed to action, is a testament to an enormous strength of character and moral fiber.

Take care,
x.
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ChaoticPsychotic

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Post Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:10 am

Thanks for your concern. I am seeing a therapist. He's been quite helpful. Although I have to admit - we have not yet begun to address the nitty gritty stuff that I sometimes mention on this board. I am sure it will be um... like a fireworks grand finale when it finally does get addressed. :wink:

Some of the best therapy for me so far though has been able to spill the beans on this board and have it heard by others who know exactly what I am talking about. B/c they have been there done that as well.

Of course I love fueling the Anon fire too! :twisted: I love you guys and love what you are doing for all the people like me and the 3 lovelies that started this site! :oops:
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Holden Caulfield

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Post Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:58 am

Grundy wrote:Well, if that isn't some of the worst out-tech I've ever seen.

TR OBB isn't supposed to be used to handle upsets. An L1C is supposed to be used. A locational. Something.

TROBB is supposed to be a training tool.

THAT was just CRAP!


Too bad LRH isn't around to put any new policies into action then, eh? I mean, since most Scientologists obviously can't even think out of their asses...
Last edited by Holden Caulfield on Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tru2form

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Post Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:07 am

Poor Grundy. Endless fires to put out. :mrgreen: You're doin' good. Just a reminder: we like having you around.

At some point, I'm going to make a seperate post about the Upper Indocs, because those "force people to walk across the room" TRs were scary.
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astra

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Post Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:34 am

ChaoticPsychotic wrote:My mom was diagnosed with a disease when I was 14. I was in the SO, so I had to hear the news long distance. The disease is the same one that killed my grandmother at 48. It is incurable. It is terminal but on a very long term basis.

I was freaked out beyond belief when I got the news. I was on the TTC at the time (Technical Training Corp) and I had to tell my Supervisor what was going on because I was very "BIs" (bad indicators) in the courseroom. The solution was to set me up with someone who was doing Pro Trs at the time and they bullbaited me on the subject for hours.

They taunted and teased me saying "You're mom's dying" or "Your mom's gonna die" and even "Your mom's dead". I was supposed to just sit there and take it unflinchingly. I couldn't handle it and started bawling my eyes out. Which of course just got me into trouble. I eventually got sent back to do OT TR 0 all over again.

The more I post and mull things over in my head, the more I realize how abusive it really all was. :cry:

This is why they have to be stopped. I cannot imagine any more people or children having to endure this sort of mental torture.


I don't know whether to cry or be sick... your posts remind me of just how insane it was at the HGB!
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Grundy

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Post Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:25 am

Tru2form wrote:Poor Grundy. Endless fires to put out. :mrgreen: You're doin' good. Just a reminder: we like having you around.

At some point, I'm going to make a seperate post about the Upper Indocs, because those "force people to walk across the room" TRs were scary.


Well, I haven't been kicked off yet, so I can't have pissed off too many peoples yet.

Upper Indoc? Scary? Naaaaaaahh.. lol
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